Reducing impact

[trailhead]

The meeting minutes from the MCPC mention that the impact bikes are having on the trails is becoming excessive. JORBA would like to get your perspective on this, and suggestions on how to reduce our impact so that we can avoid any repercussions. As we discuss this topic, remember that park officials are well versed in proper trail design.

"Acknowledging that off‐road bicycling is beginning to have a negative effect on the trails at the Tourne County Park

http://www.morrisparks.net/pdfs/minutes/20130520 Regular Meeting.pdf

 

[graveyardman67]

I honestly don't know how they can come to that conclusion. That is simply an opinion not weighted in any kind of fact. There is no measure of how many poeple ride bikes compared to trail runners, hikers or horses (which do much more damage and leave huge piles of crap in the middle of the trail - opinion only of course). The "impact" of cycling has been well document through scientific measure in many areas around the country - the dirt at the Tourne is not particularly succeptible to rubber tires.

What I do know. There has been an increase in renegade trail making. If you don't know where I can show you (most of it commences at the top of the Tourne). This type of problem has been an issue before at the Tourne in particular. I can remember several years ago the MCPC went to the effort of posting trail closure signs in specific areas and removing several man made stunts. I have spoken with one of the pioneers in the latest evolution of renegade builds but I don't think he understands the possible impact.

I have been riding at the Tourne longer than most people have been on the board at MCPC. The greatest impact on the trails has come in the form of the 10" of rain that fell in June in addition to the previous 2 years worth of hurricanes. I can mark 2 sections that deserve a re-route due the excessive water erosion. The process would have occured with or without any wheels on the ground.

I might add that in the years I have been a resident of MC the only trail building or maintenance (at the Tourne) that I have witnessed was done in conjunction with JORBA.

 

[Blair]

What is the alleged "negative effect"? Can't really make a case without details of what their assumptions and opinions are based on.

 

[michael.su]

What is the alleged "negative effect"? Can't really make a case without details of what their assumptions and opinions are based on.

The sad thing here is they don't legally have to prove anything. The burden of proof is on us (JORBA/Mountainbikers) to convince them otherwise. If they decide that bikes are the cause, they could just ban.

 

[Blair]

How unamerican

A 1200 pound horse and rider with destructive hooves vs a 200 pound mtb on squishy rubber, no contest, even a runner applies more weight across a smaller surface area than a bike. Furthermore suspensions dampen the full impact force. And half the damn place is gravel. My conclusion, save the forest, stop discriminating and ban everyone or no one.

 

[michael.su]

How unamerican

A 1200 pound horse and rider with destructive hooves vs a 200 pound mtb on squishy rubber, no contest, even a runner applies more weight across a smaller surface area than a bike. Furthermore suspensions dampen the full impact force. And half the damn place is gravel. My conclusion, save the forest, stop discriminating and ban everyone or no one.

I agree with you man. Somehow we're always the outlaws. It's always the same story. It gets old. The only reason it looks like we cause more damage is that there are a lot more of us actually using the parks.

 

[Frank]

How unamerican

A 1200 pound horse and rider with destructive hooves vs a 200 pound mtb on squishy rubber, no contest, even a runner applies more weight across a smaller surface area than a bike. Furthermore suspensions dampen the full impact force. And half the damn place is gravel. My conclusion, save the forest, stop discriminating and ban everyone or no one.

Couldn't agree more. But sadly, this is common through out the state as to how our user group is treated. Perhaps the issue lies more in "our" riding trails designated hiking only, or perhaps some are riding in soft conditions and leaving ruts.....other users don't appreciate that and have no problem reporting us.

 

[extremedave]

There are some really obvious new and widened sections up there:

On the last stretch of Red, (from the upper lot) at the rock garden up to where the evergreens are all blasted down. It's fire road wide right there, due to it being difficult and people making new lines.

Red again, up from the gravel trail where it splits off from Purple up from the lake. Again, tougher section where the old line is pretty narrow and people have been going around the crux.

There are TONS of new lines from the top. And one new short line, at the main intersection to go up to the top or around to the ballfield. Riders have been coming off the last drop and braking in the dirt rather than tearing up the gravel. Probably a good idea, but it's heavily worn in and obvious, right where anyone can clearly see.

Although I agree it's unfair to discriminate against one user group, honestly all this is 99% bike wear. In a fairly small and heavily used park. I'm not surprised it's getting some heat. Sadly, here at MTBNJ is preaching to the converted. Dunno what to do about the rest. Maybe some trail work to narrow things down a bit would help.

 

[Blair]

The only reason it looks like we cause more damage

Ok so how do I get on the mcpc? 1) there is no representation with decision makers, 2) as you stated, is the perception aka politics and dumb logic.

So based on this logic, we should pose as other park users and damage things in public view thus damaging actual perceptions of other users making mtbers look great. I think I just summed up our political system at the same time. Of course I'm joking about damaging things on purpose part, I don't have enough time to ride as it is.

 

[michael.su]

There are some really obvious new and widened sections up there:

On the last stretch of Red, (from the upper lot) at the rock garden up to where the evergreens are all blasted down. It's fire road wide right there, due to it being difficult and people making new lines.

Red again, up from the gravel trail where it splits off from Purple up from the lake. Again, tougher section where the old line is pretty narrow and people have been going around the crux.

There are TONS of new lines from the top. And one new short line, at the main intersection to go up to the top or around to the ballfield. Riders have been coming off the last drop and braking in the dirt rather than tearing up the gravel. Probably a good idea, but it's heavily worn in and obvious, right where anyone can clearly see.

Although I agree it's unfair to discriminate against one user group, honestly all this is 99% bike wear. In a fairly small and heavily used park. I'm not surprised it's getting some heat. Sadly, here at MTBNJ is preaching to the converted. Dunno what to do about the rest. Maybe some trail work to narrow things down a bit would help.

Nice to step up and take responsibility Dave

The only face saving thing the local MTB kats can do to help the situation now is to organize/volunteer to help remedy the issues.

I should get up there and check out the Tourne some day.....before I'm banned

 

[trailhead]

Ok so how do I get on the mcpc? 1) there is no representation with decision makers,

You are represented by JORBA.
We have started dialog with the MCPC to find out exactly what the perceived impacts are and how we can help mitigate.

 

[michael.su]

Ok so how do I get on the mcpc? 1) there is no representation with decision makers,

You are represented by JORBA.
We have started dialog with the MCPC to find out exactly what the perceived impacts are and how we can help mitigate.

Awesome! glad it's already in the works.

 

[Blair]

Great, Post up any responses.

 

[mike_243]

We also need to be careful on how we discuss the trail issues when it comes to public forums. One of the things I caught from being at a meeting down south was a user group that had a lot of negative thoughts on the MTB community. They kept bringing up how we were referring to the trails as "ours" let us try and stay as positive and even keeled with all the user groups that share the trails.

 

[graveyardman67]

All good points everyone has raised.

I will reach out to one of the "renegades" and further explain the situation. Hopefully I can may an impact regarding trail building without park consent.

 

[mike_243]

All good points everyone has raised.

I will reach out to one of the "renegades" and further explain the situation. Hopefully I can may an impact regarding trail building without park consent.

Good point unofficial trails and reroutes do us a great disservice in the long run. We need to as a group try and do 2 things.

1. try not to ride trails that are not sanctioned
2. try to get the word out on how this is sending the wrong message about what we as a core group stand for.

 

[goldsbar]

I haven't ridden the Tourne in 15 years, but think these observations apply to anywhere:

*The weather in the last 3 years has done at least 25 years worth of erosion

*Not sure of the Tourne, but bikers are the majority trail users of most "real" trails (i.e. not the flat rail type trails where you see the moms with strollers; nothing wrong with that), so of course we cause more erosion

*The occasional foray by some testosterone heavy a-hole on a motocross bike or quad does about 1,000 bike rides of damage in one ride. Then again, same applies to the MTBRs who think it's either good technique or cool to constantly skid.

*Some MTBRs do cause a ton of damage. I see trail cutting/straightening and other damage at Lewis Morris all the time. I even see this at the Randolph trails which are mostly gravel roads!

*Some trails are built well, some aren't. Areas like Allamuchy North have actually improved over time. Reroutes take forever to regrow. Compact dirt is as tough as pavement. Do it right the first time.

 

[Blair]

Ok so we'll chalk it up to global warming(weather) and is a repercussion of our society corrected by the taxes imposed on the citizens. The fact that they allocate nothing to the parks is not our problem, its a problem for all users. Point, JORBA assistance unfunded. Just pointing out these topics for the next mcpc meeting.

 

[BAIN]

I have been riding Tourne for the past 7 years on and off and I can tell you hands down that all the trail braiding on the upper section of the red aka "rattlesnake ridge" has been done by trail runners. You can also see their evidence when coming down the short washout on the left side of the swimming section.

I spent plenty of days closing reroutes while hiking through with downed trees just to have them opened up again. There must be something about rocks and feet that don't match.:cry:

Runners are still going straight up and down the switchbacks using the older trail.

Unless there is a down tree that can't be moved, I will always take the original lines no matter how difficult. If they are going to give us problems about reroutes around trees, then they shouldn't wait months before clearing.

I have even gone as far as posting up signs to stop it. I have also witnessed many riders taking the easy way out on the runners braids.

Now on the other side of things, we all know the new downhills from the top of the Tourne were not created by runners. I haven't personally taken these trails yet, but I have seen them when using the gravel roads and wondered if someone had gotten permission.

Just ask if any help is needed. I will gladly contribute to blocking braids/trails and posting signs for regrowth.

ps. They should worry more about the tons of people who do not leash their dogs.

 

[extremedave]

Nice to step up and take responsibility Dave
(

Ok, while I'm no saint, I rarely (maybe two or three times ever) ride the Top of the Tourne side. Leave it for the hikers I think. The other two, I like the harder line coming up from the lake as I don't always nail it (wide bars and a narrow line is my excuse!). The other uphill rock garden..man I don't even know where the legit line is anymore.
And yes, I know you're kidding.