Pace/terrain standards?

Although it's not an easy thing to do with trail riding,....I fully support all of Anrothar's ideas about setting up a rating system for group rides.

Out of the several hundred registered mtbnj Members, there is mainly a small :( core group of people who regularly post on the forums. And most appear to be racers, or people who know them. So they would pretty much know each others riding style/ability. Maybe more ride connecting goes on through PMs, I don't know.

If mtbnj wants to bring even more people to the sport and to it's site, (or get more activity out of it's vast membership), I think it might be a little less intimidating to new people and non-racers if they had a bit more info about a group ride they may want to participate in.

:confused: But, then again the person posting the ride could put all that relevent info into their post.

But also, a rating system would give people new to MTBing in general, or NJ MTBing, or even new to a different location within NJ, some idea where they can start out. And then where they would fit in as their abilities improved.

But, then again,...again, if mtbnj wants to be a mainly racing oriented website, it would seem that a ride rating system might not be of as much use.
 

pixychick

JORBA: Ringwood
JORBA.ORG
Technical does not mean the same to everyone either. Men tend to generalize that risk is skill. So generalizing technical without actual specifics may be misinterpreted. Adding specifics like unramped big logs, steep rollovers, tight and twisty, rock gardens, high risk stunts etc. may still be helpful. Someone can be fit, get off and walk a log and still keep up and have fun.

To me what is more important is the pace/flow of the ride. Is it a training ride with a strict minimum pace, or a social ride with tolerance of varied pace. I think someone mentioned social in the other thread, and I just asssumed that everone knew that meant, if you can't keep up with the pace, the group can socialize while waiting, and that's ok.
 

Norm

Mayor McCheese
Team MTBNJ Halter's
Technical does not mean the same to everyone either. Men tend to generalize that risk is skill. So generalizing technical without actual specifics may be misinterpreted. Adding specifics like unramped big logs, steep rollovers, tight and twisty, rock gardens, high risk stunts etc. may still be helpful. Someone can be fit, get off and walk a log and still keep up and have fun.

To me what is more important is the pace/flow of the ride. Is it a training ride with a strict minimum pace, or a social ride with tolerance of varied pace. I think someone mentioned social in the other thread, and I just asssumed that everone knew that meant, if you can't keep up with the pace, the group can socialize while waiting, and that's ok.

Really good points Ellen. I don't think I can accurately describe the technical features of a park anymore. I just don't know what's hard for some people. The bridge at the end of the Ringwood race loop is a great example. I had never ridden those trails so last week I was following Ben and he went up, so I did. My general approach is, if it's there it can be done. One of the guys in the group didn't even try. He got off and walked because he didn't have the confidence. I would never have classified that as anything technical so it just goes to show I have no idea how to label a park. Maybe this discussion will only help in that regard.

Also good points on the pace. I think a lot of men tend to get sucked up in trying to go faster than the guys they ride with and a moderate/social pace ride turns into a slugfest of sorts.

Rosy,

You actually touch on a major problem I have with the mountain biking scene in general. I agree that posted rides need to be more descriptive. See Phatbiker's post in the RRE forum for a very descriptive ride.

I also think the TM efforts suffer in this regard. For a few weeks now I have been trying to get the JORBA chapter leaders to give me descriptions of what the TM effort in any given week will entail. And I have asked some people to post pics and follow up summaries of how the session went. I have been met with almost deafening silence on this front. People need information. People like pictures. If you show people more they get more excited. The more I get involved the more I appreciate what Mergs is doing in this state.

I think the race scene is finally well-covered. We have race promoters posting and some solid race recaps being posted. If we could only follow that pettern with group rides and TM sessions that would go a long way to truly promoting the sport in the state, which is one of the stated aims of this website.
 

elzoller

El Guac-Oh
than what would you consider an A+?

Ringwood, Skyline Dr, Allamuchy....

But in all those 3 above you can make a route that might be a B....or C if it is all fireroad.....

But again what is technical for me is not the same for others....so this is very subjective...

Pace for me varies, while most of the time I like to pedal at a nice "sport" pace, sometimes I just go slow.:drooling:

My rides are about trying every log-stacle, bridge, rock roll, rock garden, steep/long climb, etc. Most of the time I stop for do-overs. So I don't mind stopping & taking short brakes.

Perhaps you can use my SANTO scale to rate the trails...:D For example:

Ringwood:
santo-b11.jpg
santo-b11.jpg
santo-b11.jpg
santo-b11.jpg
santo-b11.jpg

KSVP:
santo-b11.jpg
 

clutch

New Member
When I first started posting on mtbr I was very apprehensive about whether I would be holding anyone up. After going on a couple of group rides, I found out I was a middle of the pack guy and had nothing to worry about there. Here, with the emphasis clearly on racing, I've become apprehensive again.

Case in point the allamuchy redux. I wanted to do the actual race before it was canceled and thought it was a great idea to get together and do a group ride in its place. From reading the posts in the thread I got the distinct impression I would be holding people up and was glad I didn't jump in on that ride after reading the recap.
At this point I would tend to classify a ride as expert/sport/beginner pace. I understand that not everyone races so some people have no idea what that means. ....
I think the confusion comes because there is a difference between a beginner racer pace and a beginner mountain biker pace.
...
I also think the TM efforts suffer in this regard. For a few weeks now I have been trying to get the JORBA chapter leaders to give me descriptions of what the TM effort in any given week will entail. And I have asked some people to post pics and follow up summaries of how the session went. I have been met with almost deafening silence on this front. People need information....

Here's a good example of what you're talking about.

http://www.dieselbikes.com/trails/lyw/lyw_trail_work.htm

Man, I miss Lynn.
 
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Norm

Mayor McCheese
Team MTBNJ Halter's
Here, with the emphasis clearly on racing, I've become apprehensive again.

I wouldn't be. The higher-level racers aren't going to post group rides because they'll get nothing out of waiting around. Guys like me do ok now and again at the races but most of the time the group rides are a warm pace at best. If I'm looking for a hammer fest I'll post that it's going to be a faster paced ride.

Case in point the allamuchy redux. I wanted to do the actual race before it was canceled and thought it was a great idea to get together and do a group ride in its place. From reading the posts in the thread I got the distinct impression I would be holding people up and was glad I didn't jump in on that ride after reading the recap.

I didn't bother to being with. I thought the redux was either going to be a total mess or way above my head. It ended up being over my head. I'm sure I would have held on to the back but I would have been hurting when we were done. But your point is valid, the recap used the expression "laying down the hurt" which was in direct contrast to the described pace. But also, I knew who was going to be there and I know a little about the fitness levels and group riding dynamics so it was an educated guess.

Here's a good example of what you're talking about.

http://www.dieselbikes.com/trails/lyw/lyw_trail_work.htm

Man, I miss Lynn.

Interesting, I'm sure I've said this before but I've ridden up there when Woody lived in Mass.

So why not join the picnic, bring the bike Saturday morning, and we'll do some laps at LM. Everyone is welcome and when we're done maybe you have a better idea where you fit in the whole realm of riders.
 

NJ-XC-Justin

KY-DH-Freddy
At this point I would tend to classify a ride as expert/sport/beginner pace. I understand that not everyone races so some people have no idea what that means. But I think it helps to have a pace for a posted ride.

I agree with this. An intermediate ride does not necessarily imply a "Sport" ride. If you're riding sections of Ringwood for an hour without stopping, you're not a "Beginner" rider in the true definition of the word, yet you could be still dropped by your average Sport racer pretty easily.

The terrain part would be more easily categorizable I would think since someone's technical skills (or lack thereof) are quickly apparent.
 

anrothar

entirely thrilled
while it may seem that this site has been race-focused of late, that's just because the guys/gals racing are doing the bulk of the posting. all the non-racers just need to speak up. for what it's worth though, more rides have been posted than races as far as i know.
 

KenS

JORBA: Director
JORBA.ORG
I also think the TM efforts suffer in this regard. For a few weeks now I have been trying to get the JORBA chapter leaders to give me descriptions of what the TM effort in any given week will entail. And I have asked some people to post pics and follow up summaries of how the session went. I have been met with almost deafening silence on this front. People need information. People like pictures. If you show people more they get more excited. The more I get involved the more I appreciate what Mergs is doing in this state.

I think the race scene is finally well-covered. We have race promoters posting and some solid race recaps being posted. If we could only follow that pettern with group rides and TM sessions that would go a long way to truly promoting the sport in the state, which is one of the stated aims of this website.

Good points, but understand that any given TM session's work is dependant almost entirely on how many people show up. If you check the TM portions of the JORBA forum I think the "descriptions of what the TM effort will entail in any given week" question is usually answered. Examples:

http://www.jorba.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=596 - Allamuchy

http://www.jorba.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=682 - Allaire

http://www.jorba.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=653 - Kittatinny (New chapter too, awesome!)

http://www.jorba.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=577 - Jungle Habitat

The chapter TM leaders are trying to get the word out. There is almost always a thank you/recap post on the JORBA forums as well.
We can do better by cross posting, thats for sure.

Some shots of TM sessions below, and be sure to check out RVCC's video for excellent TM footage.

Small crew fixing some mud in Hartshorne: http://www.pbase.com/kseebeck/hartshorne

IMBA TCC visit to Allaire:http://www.pbase.com/kseebeck/atug2

RVCC Video:
http://www.kmtb.com/bbs/zboard.php?id=kmtb_videos&category=1&no=207
 

ArmyOfNone

Well-Known Member
I like kerrys idea, but i feel it may be vague. Sean seemed to cover all the bases.

I think as the great once bearded wonder previously mentioned, people ride out of their ability which tends to throw a big ol wrench in things.
 

hardtale70

She's Gone From Suck to Blow
Shop Keep
i chase the fast "core" riders all the time and feel they are the nicest and most accomodating group. A basic drop/no drop descrip is fine cause if you're not sure you just ask somebody who's ridden w/ somebody and you get an idea of pace etc. I am lucky though cause my trail knowledge gives me the option to tapout anywhere anytime i'm in trouble and see myself back to the car. I also pay attention to will not skill in ride posts. If a rider is whining about start time they usually lack the will to get outta bed let alone ride a bike offroad and i make choices accordingly.I kinda think that road ride system that was posted somewhere was easily transferrable to xc and seemed easy to follow
 

ChrisG

Unapologetic Lifer for Rock and Roll
I think Sean's suggested classifications are excellent and cover the key elements well, without being overly complicated.
 

Norm

Mayor McCheese
Team MTBNJ Halter's
i chase the fast "core" riders all the time and feel they are the nicest and most accomodating group. A basic drop/no drop descrip is fine cause if you're not sure you just ask somebody who's ridden w/ somebody and you get an idea of pace etc. I am lucky though cause my trail knowledge gives me the option to tapout anywhere anytime i'm in trouble and see myself back to the car. I also pay attention to will not skill in ride posts. If a rider is whining about start time they usually lack the will to get outta bed let alone ride a bike offroad and i make choices accordingly.I kinda think that road ride system that was posted somewhere was easily transferrable to xc and seemed easy to follow

Good post Brett. I'm going to translate one of your points in there for those who might not have picked it up:

If you're going to show up hungover, don't waste people's time.
 

walter

Fourth Party
I think Sean's suggested classifications are excellent and cover the key elements well, without being overly complicated.

Agreed. I think one more addition, which most already usually include, should be an estimate of mileage and/or ride time. I would lean more towards mileage because if its a big social type ride, the amount of actual ride time may not cover alot of trail miles.

You wouldnt want someone who is used to only riding 5-8 miles show up for an "easy" 30 miler.
 

idbrian

Crotch Rot
I didn't read through all the posts but i really like the original posters suggestion. I find that my ability to ride tech far exceeds my stamina and when i'm trying to figure out what ride to go on that becomes a problem. I hate feeling like i'm holding up a group and avoiding it has me riding past the point of exhaustion.
 
P

Phatbiker

Guest
oh my god.. i just read all those posts!! i guess i'm a little worried if people understand what to expect when i post a ride or am i too vauge?

an A B system for pace or terrain might be too subjective and may not take into account the terrain that someone is used to riding..more precisely, to someone that lives in northern nj calling skyline drive A terrain might make sense but someone that lives in a place with no rocks at all might say that that place isn't ridable at all. the same goes for someone that thinks that his/her local trail is the the most difficult trail but a rider that simply rides harder stuff comes along and cleans it with no issues at all.

i have no idea what i'm saying..i'm bored right now..

nelson
 
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