OHV- dirtbikes, quads, 'jeeps'

where would you support legal trail use for them?

  • some parks on a restricted basis

    Votes: 5 33.3%
  • wildlife management areas

    Votes: 2 13.3%
  • watershed areas

    Votes: 1 6.7%
  • not on public lands

    Votes: 4 26.7%
  • some combination of the above

    Votes: 5 33.3%

  • Total voters
    15

anrothar

entirely thrilled
what's your opinion on legal trail use for dirt bikes, 4-wheelers, trucks and other motorized trail users?

should they be allowed in some parks? on a restricted(times/types of user/specific trails) basis?

should they be allowed(legally) on wma trails?

restricted to permission only private property?

have you had conflicts with motorized trail users?

how do they affect your riding experience?

they represent a very large body of trail users, despite the fact that probably 95% of them are using trails that they are technically not allowed on 95% of the time. many other states, probably most, have a much larger proportion of trails open to OHV use. in new jersey there is only one, very small location for recreational OHV use.
 
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Shaggz

A strong 7
i think if there were more legal outlets to funnel this user group into, there would be less of an wide-scal poaching issue.
 

anrothar

entirely thrilled
my opinion:

i've never had a conflict with motorized trail users. i love riding on the trails that they created. sometimes, it does seem that they cause alot more damage than other trail users, but overall, i think the fact that they speed up the erosion of leaves, and clear much of them from the trail makes for a more enjoyable experience in the late fall. in winter the trails they make through the snow increases my riding time. dirt bike riders have made some really nice, fun singletrack in the woods near me, that would have taken ten times the amount of time and effort to create by any other means. i think they should be allowed on wmas(with similar restrictions as have mtbs as regards hunting seasons), watershed areas, with similar rules regarding the permit(which is never checked anyway), and perhaps on a limited basis in some parks. i definitely think that there should be alot more places for them to ride legally. they already use all of these areas anyway. i would say 80% of the trails i ride would not exist if it weren't for four wheelers and dirt bikes.

make them legal, give them land to ride, and i guarantee alot more of them will step up to fix any problems that their use causes on the trails.
 

heythorp

New Member
My brother in law started/owned and then sold Paragon Park in Hazelton PA. After watching what he went through and learning some of the business, I dont think there is anything (at least in Morris County) large enough to make everyone happy. That includes the Riders/Hikers/Bikers/Home Owners. Maybe the last one being the most important.


I am not saying they should not have the right. Heck its a recreation just like anything else peple do and if their are resources to support it great. I just dont think there is. Not that I am an expert.

I know you are trying to get some TM rights in some areas. There is a huge liability thing with this too. Every weekend at the park ambulances were on site and more then a few times a helocopter had to come in to fly people out.


There is a lot to consider when asking the question "should they be allowed acces" at least more then if I think they should or not. Many logistics and many concerns to the public and enviornment also.

so i guess my vote is I dont know.. on private land i say do what you want its your land but if you are goiong to build a business of it, i dont think the town will let ya and i dont think any public land is going to be availiable just to get in you truck and go out there.
 
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anrothar

entirely thrilled
other states/couties/federal agencies have been able to do it. and there actually is enough land to create something reasonable as far as a specific location. for about ten years before they turned it into the berkshire valley golf course, that area was used exclusively by ohvs, mtbs, and dog walkers. and there are still plenty of places like that. jefferson township owns at least a few hundred acres that are not in any official use. i think your points are the same fears that towns had for years about skateparks, but now municipal skateparks are springing up all over the place. that and the 350,000 recorded motorized trail users in the state are already using these trails, with minimal serious injuries. i can only recall a handful of times locally that they've had to get trucks in to transport someone out of the woods that was riding a dirtbike/quad.

i'm not an expert on this either, and i'm not trying to become a public advocate for them.

just a rained out ride, boring morning post.
 

bonefishjake

Strong like bull, smart like tractor
Team MTBNJ Halter's
splitrock is PLENTY big enough. trust me.

i wanted to add to this since at some point in my life, i've fallen into every category: hiker, hunter, OHVer and mtber. the only thing i haven't been is a horse rider and i 1000% agree with norm and simply CANNOT stand the fact that folks with horses just flat out get special treatment. you want to start a fight, try to get a straight answer as to WHY bikers can't be on the same trails.

at any rate, yes, we do have a small and open space challenged state. but what it all comes down to is planning and being smart. there is no reason all these groups can't share the same space as long as some basic rules are followed.

i think the BEST way for the state, or anyone, to manage it is to do a permit system that requires some number of hours of TM. that way, everyone involved would have a vested interest in the trails. of course there are issues with this (the two biggest: man power and $$) such as how do you stop those without the permits. the simple answer is, you don't. or, more to the point, those with the permits would. as most of us know, there is NOTHING that gets you fired up more than to see all of the hard work you've done be flat out abused by someone.

it could work, but it needs organization. and money. and time. and a celebrity host.
 
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SpartaBard

Well-Known Member
Team MTBNJ Halter's
I would like to see them step up and do some TM. I have no problem with them riding in select authorized areas (just like us), but would also like to see them taking care of the trails, and only riding on the trails.
 

Norm

Mayor McCheese
Team MTBNJ Halter's
Get a trainer and you won't be left with these idle, devil-like thoughts. Kids!

I'm in the "I don't know" camp. IMO, the biggest detriment to the motorized riders is the noise. I don't think people really care all that much about the trails being torn up, especially if they're sanctioned for that kind of use. But in this cramped space of NJ, if you live near a tiny area where it's legal, it's going to sound like 30 people are having a 6 hour long leaf blower fight. This is if the home owners don't live too close.

I generally have no problem with the idea that anyone can use a trail. Like I mentioned in another thread, I cruised by 2 guys carrying guns in Allamuchy a few weeks back, and they were about as friendly as can be. My step-father and his buddies all used to be big hunters. While I never took up the sport, the guys I know were really good guys. Far more responsible than your standard cross-section of mtb riders. But with the gun comes the bigger risk, and down it goes from there. I imagine the same can be said for a motorized vehicle. Bigger speed, bigger injuries.

There's also a part of me that thinks ALL parks should be open to ALL user groups. Hunters obviously face the issue of stray bullets/arrows. But I think hiker/horse-only trails is fucking obnoxious and theft of my tax dollars. South Mountain and Watchung should be closed and paved over due to corruption of land managers and/or local politicians.

Ok, I'm ranting. Time to hit the trainer.
 

ryderX

JORBA Luddite: KVSP Bulldog
JORBA.ORG
Trainer? It's a bit early in 2007 for me to be sitting on a trainer. Now's the time of the year to reap all the benefits of our hard work and training and just kick back and do a slow recovery, and taper down the season.
Sean if your in town call me for Sunday.
Happy Thanksgiving.
 

heythorp

New Member
anrothar said:
i think your points are the same fears that towns had for years about skateparks, but now municipal skateparks are springing up all over the place. that and the 350,000 recorded motorized trail users in the state are already using these trails, with minimal serious injuries. i can only recall a handful of times locally that they've had to get trucks in to transport someone out of the woods that was riding a dirtbike/quad.

i'm not an expert on this either, and i'm not trying to become a public advocate for them.

just a rained out ride, boring morning post.
There is more to this then just people getting hurt. As norm stated its about the community wanting it in their back yards. Most people won't want the noise. Also there are other things that many don't consider. Like when all these trucks come out of the woods and dump mud all over the road. Believe me this is a serious problem. Paragon bought a water truck because of issues like this.

Like i said i am not for or against it, just trying to share some of the problems associated with this sort of thing.

I can tell you I would not want it in my neighbor hood. But I also understand that these people should have their place too. Not sure what the answer is. Paragon is only 2 hours away.
 

bonefishjake

Strong like bull, smart like tractor
Team MTBNJ Halter's
heythorp said:
There is more to this then just people getting hurt. As norm stated its about the community wanting it in their back yards. Most people won't want the noise. Also there are other things that many don't consider. Like when all these trucks come out of the woods and dump mud all over the road. Believe me this is a serious problem. Paragon bought a water truck because of issues like this.

Like i said i am not for or against it, just trying to share some of the problems associated with this sort of thing.

I can tell you I would not want it in my neighbor hood. But I also understand that these people should have their place too. Not sure what the answer is. Paragon is only 2 hours away.
it's likely all about the noise. look at mt. lakes- they've been trying to BAN backpack leaf blowers for as long as i can remember.
 

jdog

Shop: Halter's Cycles
Shop Keep
I grew up in Maine where anything goes for the most part in terms of motorized vehicles. I rode a 3 wheeler for years all over the place. I rode snowmobiles in the winter too.

Here in NJ we live in sue-happy land where people are afraid of everything outside the comfort of their local mega mall. When I tell someone at a social event that I mt bike, Road ride, Surf, hike, snowshoe, etc.. they seriously don't think that any of these outdoor activities are even an option in NJ.

If I was still in Maine I would be riding a endure bike as much or more than a Mt bike. They are really really fun. I find myself on E-bay holding myself back from the purchase of a dual sport often..

Truth be told we need to do everything that we can here in NJ to keep hold of what little open space is left. If more spots allowed offroad use they would be trashed. I have trashed plenty and built plenty of trails in my day.

Trail access for motorized users is doomed in NJ. Hopefully not so much for those of us on bikes.


My bike was in the shop the other day covered with Mud. Someone commented that who ever was riding that bike must have ruined the trails. I was riding a trail that I built and I promise that it isn't ruined. Unfortunately this is the public perception.


What people fail to realize is that a place like Watchung reservation is now a more dangerous place for a walker since no one mt bikes there. Since it sees so little traffic a mugging or worse can now occur without notice...

I was so happy to see the work going on in the Jungle habitat. This gives some hope for the future of Mt biking here in NJ. Hopefully all this work will be noticed. Maybe the folks who make decisions about Watchung might see what is possible when Mt bikers work together.

j-
 
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anrothar

entirely thrilled
i suppose i was thinking more along the lines of simply legalizing alot of the trails that these guys/gals already use. i didn't take into consideration the fact that legalizing them would attract alot more users, thereby multiplying the problems associated with them.

but i stand by the fact that there are plenty of places where they could be ridden, even in mass numbers, without creating a noise issue for local residents/buisinesses.

a paved entrance and mandatory tire/undercairrage hosedown could solve alot of the mud issues. and those wouldn't be much of a problem with atv's and dirt bikes, which would be trailered in and out.
 

jdog

Shop: Halter's Cycles
Shop Keep
Oh yeah..

anrothar said:
i suppose i was thinking more along the lines of simply legalizing alot of the trails that these guys/gals already use. i didn't take into consideration the fact that legalizing them would attract alot more users, thereby multiplying the problems associated with them.

but i stand by the fact that there are plenty of places where they could be ridden, even in mass numbers, without creating a noise issue for local residents/buisinesses.

a paved entrance and mandatory tire/undercairrage hosedown could solve alot of the mud issues. and those wouldn't be much of a problem with atv's and dirt bikes, which would be trailered in and out.

If you leaglized a single area it would be a field day. Think Mt bike race on wet day x 1000.

I could then go buy my dualsport.

j
 

Norm

Mayor McCheese
Team MTBNJ Halter's
ryderX said:
Trainer? It's a bit early in 2007 for me to be sitting on a trainer. Now's the time of the year to reap all the benefits of our hard work and training and just kick back and do a slow recovery, and taper down the season.
Sean if your in town call me for Sunday.
Happy Thanksgiving.
Well my biking resume doesn't exactly allow for a light offseason. I don't mind the trainer either. So it all works out for me. YMMV.
 

hoof

New Member
http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&z=17&ll=40.902315,-74.771554&spn=0.00562,0.010471&t=k&om=1

That link should be a map of the Saxton Falls sand pit. While I don't think it was ever technically legal to ride motorcycles there, if the local cops caught you riding somewhere illegal they would tell you to ride at Saxton Falls instead. Around ten years ago Saxton falls became off limits too.

I'd love to see places like that reopened for motorcycles.

It used to be fun on a bicycle too, but it's way too overgrown now.
 

Allamuchy Joe

Not White House Approved
JORBA.ORG
I've run into some of these guys in Allamuchy. Firstly, they stink like hell -- every ride down the trail after one of them? So much for fresh air.

One of the guys riding a trail bike in Allamuchy thought it would be funny to "spray" us with rocks when he took off down the trail. He deliberately gunned his engine to shoot some loose rocks at us. We didn't say a damn thing to these guys -- the only thing we did was get out of their way. That was the second time that has happened to our group -- the other time was on a railtrail where the guy almost crashed after trying to spray us. Would have been cool if he did.

My ATV experience included a guy in Allamuchy tearing the hell out of this hill by Cranberry Lake. Fat slob was trying to get up this steep incline that was wet. He left a rut that was 1 foot deep and about 6 feet long. Great work, jackass. He finally blazed his own trail around the incline and destroyed a sapling.

In Michaux State Forest in PA they have dedicated ATV trails and it works out well. The guys seemed to be enjoying themselves and I didn't see any evidence of them on the single track areas of the park.
 

jdog

Shop: Halter's Cycles
Shop Keep
I have been attending the Pedro's Mt Bike fest for almost 10 years. Every year I ride with some locals who actually build mt bike specific trails in the Pittsfield state Forrest.

These guys see so much ATV trail abuse that the trails that they ride have no visible entrances and exits. They actually set them up such that you must carry your bike in and out of the singletrack sections. This area has some if the best stuff I have ever seen.

They found that if their trails are obviously marked they get destroyed by ATVs and become highways vs. the very sweet singletrack trails that I keep riding there.

I have heard of but not ridden a slightly unknown system of trails in Ringwood. I don't know the location but I have been invited to ride them. In a similar scenario they have secret ends so they do not get trampled.


I love ATVs.. Just not in my backyard. I too have seen them poaching Allamuchy, Chimney Rock, Watchung Res., etc.. They are having a ton of fun and causing 10 years worth of Mt bike impact in 30 seconds.

j
 
B

bdpeter

Guest
carl said:
There are tons of acres of land to legally ride a dirt bike in NJ. The only cavet is that the motorcycle has to be street legal. There are many enduro clubs in NJ which all work closely with the Park System & DEP/ Fish & Game.. They do hours & hours of trail maintenance. Noise is not a problem..all of the riding goes on in state forests.. far away from houses. This is all in South Jersey.

An Enduro Club in Northern NJ called the Ridge Riders bascially built all of the trails that you all now ride in Allamuchy. Enduros used to be run there up until a few years ago. They have now been thrown out of the park system for no real reason. This forced them to buy their own tract of land in NY state. They recently held the Word Enduro Championship's there.

Most of these guys respect & love the forest just like all of you, most even ride mtn bikes. They are not the spawn of satan like the faggots at sierra club want all to believe.
I agree with everything that Carl said.

I ride both mtn bikes and off-road dual-sport motorcycles. There are some legal riding areas in NJ, most of which are concentrated in the Pine Barrens area like Carl said, so it's a bit of a haul from where I live. I've participated in a few TM's down there as well, they happen quite frequently.

It's a little known fact that a lot of the current mtn bike trails were actually started by off-road motorcycles. Most of Moab in Utah was actually created that way.

I'm a supporter of equal opportunity trail use, and wish that every side could see that each sport is just as viable and 'trail-worthy' as the other. I've seen motorcycles, ATV's, and horses damage the trails that we use.

I agree that there might be a noise consideration, but why can't we all just get along and learn to respect and care for the land as a homogenous group? Aren't we all just outdoor recreation enthusiasts?

ok, that's enough for me.

happy riding!
 
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