Jungle Habitat is back in H2H in 2022

Patrick

Overthinking the draft from the basement already
Staff member
Apparently no longer a hypothetical. So what's the plan?

Put on the shirt and do the needful.

1649689699140.png
 

w_b

Well-Known Member
We've all ridden mud and caused trail damage. Some of us who did not know any better (and some who did) actually might have had fun. What transpired here at least brings productive open discussion (and action) on how to remediate the damage done by overuse in/after bad weather.

Hopefully we, as true and good trails advocates, can learn from this and directly contribute to minimizing easily avoidable damage to our beloved trails in the future.
 

Captain Brainstorm

Well-Known Member
Yes, definitely the promoter is to blame here. We've all participated in a race where conditions were in the "I shouldn't be riding" category. That's where the promoter has to make the call early enough to avoid it. From what I'm reading here, that was clearly an option.
And after you've raced in "I shouldn't be riding" conditions", like most of us have, you should know better, right? I'm sorry, but its not all the promotors fault. Most of the people racing are not noobs, not their first rodeo. And no one here is racing for their livelihood either, are they? Unfortunately this will happen again somewhere else.
 

clarkenstein

JORBA Board Member/Chapter Leader
JORBA.ORG
They do to me.

I won’t go though the only commitment it takes to race and be competitive, but it’s a LOT. When the stars align and I do get to race it actually matters a ton to me. When I got home and my kids ask how I did, and I get to tell them I won and show them the cheap little wooden medal, it matters.

I say this with tons of respect. I know you’re also up at 5 In the morning, but working on trails. So I don’t expect you to think highly of the racer mentality. But when you say the races don’t matter, that’s your opinion. I promise you I am not alone in my opinion that they do.
I was too emotional there - I get what you’re saying. I know the effort the women and men put in to get as fast and as fit as you do. I don’t join posted group rides for a reason - I know how slow I am now, and how fast your casual pace is. I blame my cookie addiction as well those trail days. If you’re TM’ing you’re not riding.

I’m not a trail nazi - I spend plenty of mornings out there doing work, but I also know the reality that the more trail-health focused people don’t want to hear, which is, overall, the trails can take it. Sure they’ll be beat up, but well designed trails can actually take a pounding in the long run. I’ve seen it first hand. I have also fixed the bad. It doesn’t help to have hundreds of laps in the wet. It will definitely take an effort based on the small sample of video I’ve seen on social media. I would like to see what did hold up well. I’m always curious to see that too. That needs to be part of the picture so the bad spots can become the good spots.

What I am looking for is balance. If everyone took one step toward the middle in our group, we would all be better off.
 
I was too emotional there - I get what you’re saying. I know the effort the women and men put in to get as fast and as fit as you do. I don’t join posted group rides for a reason - I know how slow I am now, and how fast your casual pace is. I blame my cookie addiction as well those trail days. If you’re TM’ing you’re not riding.

I’m not a trail nazi - I spend plenty of mornings out there doing work, but I also know the reality that the more trail-health focused people don’t want to hear, which is, overall, the trails can take it. Sure they’ll be beat up, but well designed trails can actually take a pounding in the long run. I’ve seen it first hand. I have also fixed the bad. It doesn’t help to have hundreds of laps in the wet. It will definitely take an effort based on the small sample of video I’ve seen on social media. I would like to see what did hold up well. I’m always curious to see that too. That needs to be part of the picture so the bad spots can become the good spots.

What I am looking for is balance. If everyone took one step toward the middle in our group, we would all be better off.
My two cents. I don't care why anyone races, just like I'm sure those folks don't care why I ride. However, we're all using a shared resource and have a responsibility to take care of it for the collective group. That this race happened, benefiting a minority of riders and despite the obvious negative impact it was going to have, breaks that contract. That is supremely disappointing and doesn't bode well for the future.
 

jShort

2018 Fantasy Football Toilet Bowl Lead Technician
Team MTBNJ Halter's
What I am looking for is balance.

I appreciate your understanding. I think a simple solution is for H2H to require rain dates, or tell promoters to reschedule / cancel and issue refunds if need be. I also understand that is a logistical nightmare which is probably why they don’t currently do that.

If i got an email at 9PM Friday night saying the race was canceled/ postponed I would have happily slept in.
 
I appreciate your understanding. I think a simple solution is for H2H to require rain dates, or tell promoters to reschedule / cancel and issue refunds if need be. I also understand that is a logistical nightmare which is probably why they don’t currently do that.

If i got an email at 9PM Friday night saying the race was canceled/ postponed I would have happily slept in.
Personally, I agree. Events are always logistically crappy, particularly outdoor events. That doesn't give H2H an excuse to not have a responsible plan. If they're too small, poor, disorganized, etc. to have a proper plan, move the event to time of year when there's not a good chance that weather will be a factor.
 

jShort

2018 Fantasy Football Toilet Bowl Lead Technician
Team MTBNJ Halter's
That doesn't give H2H an excuse to not have a responsible plan.
I agree… but another part of me thinks H2H is hanging on by threads as it is. As someone who enjoys racing I’d hate to lose a local series.


It’s definitely not a clear cut discussion.
 

JDurk

Well-Known Member
And after you've raced in "I shouldn't be riding" conditions", like most of us have, you should know better, right? I'm sorry, but its not all the promotors fault. Most of the people racing are not noobs, not their first rodeo. And no one here is racing for their livelihood either, are they? Unfortunately this will happen again somewhere else.
Let me re-phrase. Participating in a race that started out fine, but un-predicted weather rolls in during the race and things go sideways? I have pulled the plug instead of finish. Or 20 miles from the finish in Rothrock S.P., keep going. As a former promoter of several races and still involved with a group that promotes a race, I know what decisions need to be made. Been racing since 2008 and will say promoters have gotten better at making the call. And yes, unfortunately, of course this will happen again.
 

Kaleidopete

Well-Known Member
I always thought the event promotor had to have a agreement with the land manager in order to even put on an event.
Especially in a state park. Then after the event any public citizen can report any problems back to the land manager, who
than gets ahold of the promotor and has them correct those problems created by the event. Am I wrong?
 
Last edited:

Captain Brainstorm

Well-Known Member
Let me re-phrase. Participating in a race that started out fine, but un-predicted weather rolls in during the race and things go sideways? I have pulled the plug instead of finish. Or 20 miles from the finish in Rothrock S.P., keep going. As a former promoter of several races and still involved with a group that promotes a race, I know what decisions need to be made. Been racing since 2008 and will say promoters have gotten better at making the call. And yes, unfortunately, of course this will happen again.
But were the conditions really fine? After 4" of rain and a forecast that called for more day of, I find it a little disingenuous to say that things were fine. Its not like lives were hanging in the balance here, the event could have been cancelled, people could have been reimbursed. That's why you get event insurance if your an organizer.
 

ryderX

Well-Known Member
I think that’s between land managers and promoters. That’s who should be concerned with that.

The rest of us watch from the sidelines and when you go to enjoy your local trail and it’s beat up, you just have to deal with it. Or you can fix other people’s mistakes as best you can. And you can also see that trails bounce back, which happens a lot even if nothing is done to “fix” them; but if hikers go out, complain, and get the ear of land managers, it’s gonna be the bikes that are removed.

It doesn’t reflect well on the messaging. It’s definitely hypocritical. Personally, I think it sucks. I went out years ago in the infamous twelve o’ muchy. After that disaster, I made up my mind and took a side. So I don’t race because I’d eat the money every time, but also I would know no one else would. That’s my choice, other people make different choices.

Like @jShort i don’t apologize for my thoughts on the matter. I think racers and promoters are equally responsible. You didn’t have a gun to your head. In the long run, these races don’t matter at all so stop riding if you care, and the actions show, they just don’t care. But that’s my opinion and weighs just as much as a racer’s opinion.
I’m was one of the promoters for the 12 O’Muchy extravaganza race. For the record the 3 of us took 6 days off from work after the race and did extensive maintenance-remediation-repair work. We later received word directly from the park superintendent that the work we did was greatly appreciated and actual addressed issues that needed to be corrected before the event. IMHO most well built trails will return to some sense of normal after a few wet and dry cycles. The areas that are prone to puddling, flooding and chronic wet spots will always be problematic and that’s why we need regularly scheduled and well attended trail maintenance dates. I’ve been involved the NJ race scene for close to 30 years and I can count how many races have ever been cancelled due to weather. I know Team Bulldog cancelled a race at Deer Park many years ago due to rain and the response form the race community was pretty evenly split down the middle. I for one do not race or ride in the rain or wet conditions- and it’s not for any altruistic reason, besides the fact I got tired of broken, destroyed gear and broken body parts.
 

JDurk

Well-Known Member
But were the conditions really fine? After 4" of rain and a forecast that called for more day of, I find it a little disingenuous to say that things were fine. Its not like lives were hanging in the balance here, the event could have been cancelled, people could have been reimbursed. That's why you get event insurance if your an organizer.
Not sure what your point is directing the conditions question to me? I joined the conversation in post #115. I didn't participate in this race and wouldn't have based on the fact that there was 4" of rain prior and more in the forecast. I agree with everything else you are saying.
 

Will

Member
all kidding aside, I went today at lunch....the race course on warthog is an unrideable mudpit, looks like Okinawa after the marines went through. A lot of other areas on cages and tanks are pretty bad. gave up and went down goat so didn't look at Hippo or Fish which I'm sure are decimated. Not sure who was being sarcastic about it being fine to ride but it needs a ton of work. so whoever (Schwartz, Jorba etc) decide to have the race and is the responsible party, why haven't you owned up to it and started work on getting things in shape? hard to convey tone on here and there are a lot of knee jerk responses, but maybe take a deep breath after reading this, wait a minute and save those responses for the half wit who decide to have this race. not right to leave it in the current condition it's in.
 

clarkenstein

JORBA Board Member/Chapter Leader
JORBA.ORG
all kidding aside, I went today at lunch....the race course on warthog is an unrideable mudpit, looks like Okinawa after the marines went through. A lot of other areas on cages and tanks are pretty bad. gave up and went down goat so didn't look at Hippo or Fish which I'm sure are decimated. Not sure who was being sarcastic about it being fine to ride but it needs a ton of work. so whoever (Schwartz, Jorba etc) decide to have the race and is the responsible party, why haven't you owned up to it and started work on getting things in shape? hard to convey tone on here and there are a lot of knee jerk responses, but maybe take a deep breath after reading this, wait a minute and save those responses for the half wit who decide to have this race. not right to leave it in the current condition it's in.
Dude - it was not JORBA.
 
Top Bottom