interesting discussion on MTBR.com

[Shar0se]

I was thinking......This whole argument fits with the old saying "If you reach for the moon and fall short you'll still be among the stars." When I argue that women should be paid equal amounts as men 100% of the time- I'm shooting for the moon. If I stated that women should only be paid equal amounts if there is a large female field- well now I'm shooting for the north star and not the moon. Each time we accept less and less, that's what we'll get, less and less.

 

[pixychick]

Another thing to keep in mind is that the US pro women have always personally and collectively scored higher than the US pro men in the UCI rankings. They also fill more podium spots at National races. So in some respects we are doing better than the men. It really is a great sport for women. Just not enough of us out there.

Great thoughts Jess. I think I'm going to call my mom today.

 

[BiknBen]

As some have pointed out, this issue has to be examined at each level of the sport individually. I agree that the purse should be equal when it is supplied by an outside sponsor of the event. A woman who has chosen to make cycling a career should be provided an opportunity to make a living doing it.

At the local or grass roots level, I think payout should be based on the turnout. The racers are supplying the purse. I think they should be rewarded proportionally.

Personally, I race for the camaraderie of the sport and event. I have managed to earn a few of those envelopes along the way. I know that a portion of my entry will be taken home by someone in my start group. The chance to be that person at the end of the race is kinda cool and motivates me during the race.

 

[tlnj]

I don't think this monetary disaprity equates to inequality or sexism at all. Those with the money to sponsor events are on a budget and are there to increase profilts. Therefore they put their money where they will get the best return

Think about the difference in salaries between the NBA and the WNBA. It's just a fact of life that overall, male sports generate more of a draw/interest, and therefore, more money.

As far as mountain biking goes, compared with females, there are a far greater number of male amateur/recreational riders out there who the sponsors can reach through these events. So again, it makes perfect sense that more $$ is thrown toward the male contingent.

I'm not saying that this situation is right, but the sad truth is that like most things that involve corporations, it all comes down to money and profits in the end.

 

[Nimrod]

Geeze, America! Must everything be motivated my money? I don't ride to win it, I ride it to play. I don't know of any mountainbiker that says,.."Gee, I want to ride this event verse that one because it has more money to win." I don't know of any "Millionaire Mountainbikers" either. This isn't road cycling. It's a party on wheels with beer pints to follow.

As for respecting women,...I think their are a lot of MALE mountainbikers that know to appreciate there Mother for giving birth to them, their girlfriend or wife for loving them, and for all of them supporting and putting up with his need to RIDE! We women often enjoy supporting our loved ones more than being in the spotlight ourselves. For those who do,....more power to them,...treat them fairly.

You tell'em Jess!!! ^well done^

 

[bonefishjake]

the fact that men's sports draw more attention than women's sports is based on an environment that madison ave created years ago when the good old boys ran things. you think i'm kidding? take a look at some of the old pictures of the marketers...the guys that really drove the business decisions and the sponsorships. it really was the good 'ol boys network. that is the real reason why. well, that and someone had to go out and kill saber toothed tigers and genetics dictated that men were physically more able to do that type of work. no brains, all brawn. that's truth too, as much as i hate to admit it since i fall squarely into the less brains more brawn category. anyway, after we killed all the sabertoothed tigers, there wasn't much else to do. that's when god invented football and the rest is history.

so, fast forward to today where in theory men and women are created equal. the reality is, it's not so and the real reason falls back to...yes, marketing dollars and the old stigmas. what marketers STILL fail to realize is that women make up 50%+ of this planet. technically we're outnumbered and that percentage has a TON of spending power. i don't see a damn reason why the numbers shouldn't be equal and i'll give you a perfect example. brandi chastain. don't know her? google it. she is a marketer's dream and should be paid every dime that she helped nike earn and then some. men, women, black, green, red, purple, it didn't matter. everyone loved it. oh, and by the way, she's a woman.

so, along the philosopher-king line of thinking that's laid out by our good friend Plato in the Republic, one of two scenarios must to occur for a fundamental shift in women's sports:

1. a woman must become so high profile (tiger woods-esque) that she is impossible for marketers to ignore
or
2. a high profile woman must become a marketer and roll the tide.

there you have it. problem solved. now, who wants to discuss the global economy and our environmental impact as a result of the fall of paganism and the rise of eurocentric philosophies?

 

[jbogner]

I don't think the inequal pay structure in mountain bike racing has anything to do with sponsor demands or the higher popularity of mens racing. Both mens and womens XC racing is equally ignored by everyone other than mountain bikers themselves.

Making everything the same is not making everything equal. Saying that things are unequal because more sports sponsorships are spent on mens sports is akin to complaining about sponsors only advertising womens products during soap operas and Oprah. Brandi Chastain is a marketers dream, within specific demographics. A commercial featuring her might be very successful on the Oxygen network, but run it on BET and viewers would scratch their heads. There is no one-size-fits-all marketing solution any more, so companies like Nike tailor their messages and their sponsorships to hit each of their target demographics differently.

But as I said before, as it specifically pertains to mountain biking, there's not an overarching sponsor-driven reason for the prizes to be unequal, since most of the prize purses (even for the men) are paltry, and not based on reaching specific gendered demographics...

 

[bonefishjake]

the actual athlete isn't the key metric, but i understand your point...to a point.

IMHO, even if you boil it down to the grassroots level of beginner mtb racing, you still don't have the draw of women b/c of the stigmas. i love people like jess that just go out and ride for the sake of fun and in a perfect world that's why everyone would do it. BUT, it would be great if from day one women had the same opportunities as men do to enter the professional levels. at this point in time it doesn't exist and the bottom line is b/c the marketing dollars (including PR spin, advertising and endorsements) are not there. someone mentioned gymnastics and figure skating earlier. last i checked, men were involved in those too (when brian boitano was in the olympics, skating for the gold, he did two sow cows and a triple lutz, while wearing a blind fold. oooohhh, what would brian boitano do if her were here right now...).

i don't have time to fully address the Oxygen v. BET comments, but in the tiger woods scenario, he appeals to both.

 

[jbogner]

i don't have time to fully address the Oxygen v. BET comments, but in the tiger woods scenario, he appeals to both.

There are obviously celebs who cross those boundaries, and they get paid very well for it. The question is "is mountain biking a sport that can cross those boundaries." At the very root of it, I don't think that it's ever going to appeal equally to men and women, because for cultural and somewhat chemical/biological reasons, men are more attracted to the "danger" inherent in mountain biking than women. That's not to say that women's participation in mountain biking cannot or should not increase- there's still lots of room for growth- but will it ever be 50/50? I honestly don't think so.

But none of that should impact pro mtb prize payouts, really. If you asked 100 mountain bikers whether they preferred to follow men's XC racing or women's XC racing, I don't think you'd find much of a preference at all. And as a promoter, I'd be just as happy to have Georgia Gould show up to my race as any of the top male racers...

 

[anrothar]

cheese. start with a huge block of cheese. you win - you get a knife, and the better you place wins you a larger time limit on how much cheese you can carve out of the block. if you can cut it and carry it - its all yours.

experts - 30 seconds of cheese cutting fun.
sport - 20 seconds of cheese.
beginners - 15 seconds of cheese cuts.

DFL - no cheese. just used babybel wax wrappers.

so, what if the first winner with access to the cheese cuts a small chunk out of it, put's the chunk on the table, then picks up the remaining huge block and walks away with it? :hmmm:

 

[Wazu]

Too much thinking going on here. The fastest and most enduring racers should get the most money. Who could argue. Using this model, with some rare exceptions, the payouts would be right around what they are now for the men and women racers. Women who want men pay should be in the men's races and beat them. If I were a male runway model and I wanted to make more than the Victoria Secret models, I'd have to be sexier than them. I'm not, and I'm in touch with that fact.

 

[Shar0se]

Too much thinking going on here. The fastest and most enduring racers should get the most money. Who could argue. Using this model, with some rare exceptions, the payouts would be right around what they are now for the men and women racers. Women who want men pay should be in the men's races and beat them. If I were a male runway model and I wanted to make more than the Victoria Secret models, I'd have to be sexier than them. I'm not, and I'm in touch with that fact.

I could argue that!

 

[Wazu]

I could argue that!

Cool! We can argue at the dinner!

 

[PlayAllDay]

And, I want want an 18 lb race bike to equal the bike to body weight ratio that most men get.:hmmm: Then I'm racin in the mens class.

I hear what you're saying. I love my bike and everyone thinks it's really light. But, at my weight, it really isn't. :hmmm:

 

[anrothar]

there's a whole world of superlight stuff out there that would be durable enough for a person ellen or wendy's size but would snap like an expensive twig under my fat arse. cost prohibitive though, which of course comes back to the original topic...

 

[pixychick]

exactly

 

[Norm]

Eat more. You'll get the weight ratio where you want it in no time.

 

[anrothar]

way to kill the ladies forum norm....

way too many men replying to the topic of this thread, way too few women. kinda sucks that it seems like every social issue that arises concerning women has a dichotomy attatched to it.

 

[ryderX]

way to kill the ladies forum norm....

way too many men replying to the topic of this thread, way too few women. kinda sucks that it seems like every social issue that arises concerning women has a dichotomy attatched to it.

That why I only crossed posted it...

 

[guava]

I think that the pros and the amatures should be handled differently. On the pro side, I think that the league should mandate equal pay, period. These women are professional athletes, and they have qualified for these events.There is no turnout issue. I also agree with pixy, that the whole olympic thing is a disgrace, especially when you consider that our women are actually more competitive than our men internationally. I think that the biggest growth potential in our sport is the 51% of the population that is already underrepresented in most other sports. Besides, how are all of us xc racer geek guys ever going to meet a cool woman that will put up with our obsessions, when we are always pedalling around in tights, unless there are a lot of women out there with us? In the ametures, at the local racers, I think it has to be somewhat based on turnout, just like it is now for men. The purses should be determined with a turnout based formula that is skewed slightly towards the women, so that when there are fewer racers, the prizes aren't as deep, but the winning purses are equal.