Hartshorne/Huber Conditions

[Patrick]

example of a park in NJ

High Bridge/Nassau and 6MR - they put total trust in the builders.
They have a plan, mitigate problem areas. Keep-up on safety issues, continually improve.
Work closely with the land managers, where they see the builders as partners and a conduit to
the community (well mtb community anyway)

unfortunately, some users being disrespectful of private property at the boundaries has come into play at both parks.

When riding the Springside at Nassau, look at the "old" trails which were straight, and provided proof that the builders
could execute on a plan - then they started adding miles using the same footprint, and winding across the old trails - closing them down.
really well done, with long-term thinking.

 

[Karate Monkey]

[snip]

Hartshorne seems to draw more than its share of complaints about the trails. What's an example of a park in NJ that has it all figured out?

All figured out, as in, nobody complains? None.

All figured out, as in there is a master plan, or extensive maintenance? Six Mile Run, Allaire State Park. Wharton as well. The northern parks Ringwood/Wayway/Sterling where there is NYNJTC and JORBA presence.

Granted, I ride the Sussex/NY parks maybe twice a year, but I have a hard time believing that a 40 foot section of trail as badly eroded as the bit in Laurel Ridge wouldn't have been slammed to the top of the repair list. As it is, it took almost 2 months from the point that it was almost unrideable up for the park to remove the tree that fell on the actual trail's(!!!) switchback many months before that. I can remember a few trees last year in Harthorne that were easily 10-20 walking minutes from a maintenance access point that were a direct threat to the health of the trail, or trail users. To the credit of the people who are currently working in Hartshorne, they seem to be more motivated lately to remove dangerous trees, but I sure-as-hell-don't-know, since nobody from the park communicates these things, let alone their maintenance plan. There are references to a document "MONMOUTH COUNTY PARK SYSTEM PARK DEVELOPMENT AND MAINTENANCE PLAN" that do not appear to have links to anything the public can actually see.

In the absence of a robust system of volunteers maintaining the parks, it is harder to stomach the lack of information about repair goals. That's all.

 

[SmooveP]

Trail networks at Nassau and 6mile aren't 50 years old and both parks get shut down regularly when conditions are bad. Objectively, some trails at Allaire are far worse than anything at Hartshorne and rogue trail/feature building is common there. Sure, mountain bikers have more free rein there, but the end results are a mixed bag.

Regarding TM at Hartshorne, anyone can go read my old comments on this thread. Bottom line is mountain bikers don't show up.

 

[wonderturtle]

I think these are entirely intertwined. The rogue trails are rougher and less maintained then official trails.

the official trails at allaire are always in excellent shape.

The allaire trails are quickly fixed when damaged.

night and day compared to Huber/ hartshorne. Once again - not complaining- imho this is fact.

a few weeks ago we came upon a BIG downed tree at allaire that completely blocked the trail. We were joking that It would be cleared before the end of our ride. Sure enough...

same tree at Huber - stays there not removed sometimes months sometimes forever - users create a re-route. Nearly every time. Indisputable fact.

Allaire are far worse than anything at Hartshorne and rogue trail/feature building is common there.

 

[SmooveP]

same tree at Huber - stays there not removed sometimes months sometimes forever - users create a re-route. Nearly every time. Indisputable fact.

Dude, are you still going on about that same tree that you always mention? It's not even in the way. My alternative facts suggest that the park people have gotten much better about removing fallen trees at both Harts and Huber. There were a lot of trees down after the last big storm and most, if not all, were cleared within a week or so. (Yes, I'm aware that some of the cleanup was done by individual mountain bikers.) If you call or email the park people, they're pretty responsive in my experience.

What's the ratio of official to non-official trails at Allaire? 50/50? I ride all 3 parks frequently and enjoy them all, but IMHO Allaire feels like a lawless frontier. Want a new trail? Bring a shovel and a rake.

 

[wonderturtle]

Dude, are you still going on about that same tree that you always mention? It's not even in the way. My alternative facts suggest that the park people have gotten much better about removing fallen trees at both Harts and Huber. There were a lot of trees down after the last big storm and most, if not all, were cleared within a week or so. (Yes, I'm aware that some of the cleanup was done by individual mountain bikers.) If you call or email the park people, they're pretty responsive in my experience.

What's the ratio of official to non-official trails at Allaire? 50/50? I ride all 3 parks frequently and enjoy them all, but IMHO Allaire feels like a lawless frontier. Want a new trail? Bring a shovel and a rake.

I havent been posting here a lot lately and as I indicated above I haven’t bitched about Huber in over a year.

Find a post within the last YEAR of me bitching.

so how exactly does that qualify as “always complaining”?

And far as “the tree“ - I can say with 100% honesty I have no idea what individual tree youre even even talking about. Instead I was making a general statement about fallen trees in the park. Maybe they’re doing better this year (I’ll take your word for it) but my experience over the years is that they typically remain for prolonged periods (leaving park users to create reroutes). We’ve all seen it over and over again.

IF I did complain about an individual tree it was well over a YEAR ago as I have NO f$@ckibg idea what individual tree you’re even talking about. No idea.

I’ll just conclude with this - clearly there’s some type of effort on the part of some here to suppress any negative comments about the MCPS treatment of trails - perhaps its some effort to try to keep a positive rapport between the mtb community and the MCPS?

I don’t know.

But what I do know (1) the trails are not well maintained and thus (2) they are very different than they
used to be

Any argument to the contrary is just not factual. Sorry. It’s just not.

but again. I’m not even complaining anymore. I’m really not. I’m beyond complaining. As indicated above, I’m resigned to it. I have accepted these facts. I really have. It is what it is.

with that said, if I complain again two years from now ... be gentle.

 

[SmooveP]

I havent been posting here a lot lately and as I indicated above I haven’t bitched about Huber in over a year.

Find a post within the last YEAR of me bitching.

so how exactly does that qualify as “always complaining”?

And far as “the tree“ - I can say with 100% honesty I have no idea what individual tree youre even even talking about. Instead I was making a general statement about fallen trees in the park. Maybe they’re doing better this year (I’ll take your word for it) but my experience over the years is that they typically remain for prolonged periods (leaving park users to create reroutes). It was a general comment (not about some unknown-to-me individual tree) and, sorry, but to say otherwise is just not factual. We’ve all seen it over and over again.

IF I did complain about an individual tree it was well over a YEAR ago as I have NO f$@ckibg idea what individual tree you’re even talking about. No idea.

I’ll just conclude with this - clearly there’s some type of effort on the part of some here to suppress any negative comments about the MCPS treatment of trails - perhaps its some effort to try to keep a positive rapport between the mtb community and the MCPS?

I don’t know.

But what I do know (1) the trails are not well maintained and thus (2) they are very different than they
used to be

Any argument to the contrary is just not factual. Sorry. It’s just not.

but again. I’m not even complaining anymore. I’m really not. I’m beyond complaining. As indicated above, I’m resigned to it. I have accepted these facts. I really have. It is what it is.

with that said, if I complain again two years from now ... be gentle.

Hey, now. You’ve obviously miscalculated the boundary between my serious commentary and the friendly ball busting. Don’t worry, I get that a lot.

 

[wonderturtle]

Hey, now. You’ve obviously miscalculated the boundary between my serious commentary and the friendly ball busting. Don’t worry, I get that a lot.

last time I commented on this matter more than a year ago (admittedly I was FAR more aggressive towards MCPS etc then) I was bitch-slapped for daring to do so.

now a YEAR plus I get “you’re always complaining”, “Is this about that tree again”. I don’t even think you’re taking about my posts. And if was me if was a looooong time ago (kudos to you for the better memory). So yeah, perhaps the joke went over my head.

 

[Patrick]

Bottom line is mountain bikers don't show up.

create enough overhead, and they are lucky anyone shows up.

don't embrace a relationship with the recognized representatives of MTB in NJ,
and see what people want to give back.

"Hey, we can send out a crew to take care of that" - no you can't.

i visited once. Once! Unless it is local, or en route to someplace, I don't think anyone is going
to ride. Even if it is the highest point in the free world east of the missisippi, on water, south of CT and north of DE

 

[Karate Monkey]

create enough overhead, and they are lucky anyone shows up.

don't embrace a relationship with the recognized representatives of MTB in NJ,
and see what people want to give back.

"Hey, we can send out a crew to take care of that" - no you can't.

i visited once. Once! Unless it is local, or en route to someplace, I don't think anyone is going
to ride. Even if it is the highest point in the free world west of the missisippi, on water, south of CT and north of DE

Some of us weren't blessed to live somewhere with elevation. It's either Hartshorne, or ride the same boring ass hill at Allaire for 3 hours.

 

[SmooveP]

create enough overhead, and they are lucky anyone shows up.

don't embrace a relationship with the recognized representatives of MTB in NJ,
and see what people want to give back.

"Hey, we can send out a crew to take care of that" - no you can't.

i visited once. Once! Unless it is local, or en route to someplace, I don't think anyone is going
to ride. Even if it is the highest point in the free world west of the missisippi, on water, south of CT and north of DE

How dare you. It’s one of the finest mtb destinations in all of east central Monmouth County.

 

[Patrick]

Some of us weren't blessed to live somewhere with elevation. It's either Hartshorne, or ride the same boring ass hill at Allaire for 3 hours.

good point.

But when @Frank or the other legends down there sends out a request for people to show up for a TM session, people show up.
(it has been awhile, since there is a core group that just takes care of stuff.)
Since the county hasn't embraced the community as a resource, the community has not shown the love.

How dare you. It’s one of the finest mtb destinations in all of east central Monmouth County.

this is irrefutable.

 

[wonderturtle]

How dare you. It’s one of the finest mtb destinations in all of east central Monmouth County.

Couple that with Tatum and you could consider east central Monmouth County as one the finest mtb destinations in all the land

 

[pooriggy]

Couple that with Tatum and you could consider east central Monmouth County as one the finest cups of tea in all the land.

Ftfy.

 

[Patrick]

do we know why?

I'm not the right person. I've been watching this for 8 years, same thing.
People that are so motivated, start making contacts, to try to build up some cred.
We kinda let down one of the Tims last year - wanted a strong showing at the TM.
Didn't get it -

I don't want to look around, but there is some of the history elsewhere on the site -
probably in this forum.

 

[Tim]

...the trails ... are very different than they
used to be

I think your points are valid and I am in no way bashing or trying to argue with you. I cherry picked that one statement just so I can get an alternate view out there.

The trails now are definitely not the same as they were even a month ago, let alone a year ago, 5 years ago, etc. I understand that some of the trails are not built according to modern accepted best practices which has contributed to the changes. Is change inherently bad? Everything natural changes over time with wind, rain, storms, erosion, etc. Once upon a time the Grand Canyon was just a little stream. The edge of Niagra Falls moves significantly every year. Is that bad? If there is anything in life that is 100% certain, it is change.

Personally, I have accepted that the trails will evolve with weather and time and It doesn't bother me. Some sections get easier, some get harder. I miss some things that aren't what they used to be but I have embraced other new challenges. I ride into the woods with an open mind and I am never disappointed when I get back to my truck. I am just out to ride my bicycle in the woods for some enjoyment, fresh air, and exercise. Can't complain too much about that.

 

[Brian Snyder]

I may have a few thoughts on this subject......

 

[Steve Vai]

I rode here this afternoon and I actually thought it was really good, except for the 500,000 people hiking of course.

 

[wonderturtle]

I think your points are valid and I am in no way bashing or trying to argue with you. I cherry picked that one statement just so I can get an alternate view out there.

The trails now are definitely not the same as they were even a month ago, let alone a year ago, 5 years ago, etc. I understand that some of the trails are not built according to modern accepted best practices which has contributed to the changes. Is change inherently bad? Everything natural changes over time with wind, rain, storms, erosion, etc. Once upon a time the Grand Canyon was just a little stream. The edge of Niagra Falls moves significantly every year. Is that bad? If there is anything in life that is 100% certain, it is change.

Personally, I have accepted that the trails will evolve with weather and time and It doesn't bother me. Some sections get easier, some get harder. I miss some things that aren't what they used to be but I have embraced other new challenges. I ride into the woods with an open mind and I am never disappointed when I get back to my truck. I am just out to ride my bicycle in the woods for some enjoyment, fresh air, and exercise. Can't complain too much about that.

Can’t argue with your perspective.

perhaps due to my bitching in the past I’m not communicating clearly enough that I have now come to largely share your views re: accepting changing trails.

Now I don’t think I’ll ever come to embrace other aspects of MCPS trail neglect like letting key sections get overgrown in the summer but I won’t go there. Oops I think I just did

 

[Karate Monkey]

I think your points are valid and I am in no way bashing or trying to argue with you. I cherry picked that one statement just so I can get an alternate view out there.

The trails now are definitely not the same as they were even a month ago, let alone a year ago, 5 years ago, etc. I understand that some of the trails are not built according to modern accepted best practices which has contributed to the changes. Is change inherently bad? Everything natural changes over time with wind, rain, storms, erosion, etc. Once upon a time the Grand Canyon was just a little stream. The edge of Niagra Falls moves significantly every year. Is that bad? If there is anything in life that is 100% certain, it is change.

Personally, I have accepted that the trails will evolve with weather and time and It doesn't bother me. Some sections get easier, some get harder. I miss some things that aren't what they used to be but I have embraced other new challenges. I ride into the woods with an open mind and I am never disappointed when I get back to my truck. I am just out to ride my bicycle in the woods for some enjoyment, fresh air, and exercise. Can't complain too much about that.

There are trails that are built to high standards, and remain unchanging other than a bit of tread loss over the last decade (the "top" of Laurel Ridge, between the switchback/horribly eroded downhill [almost like there is a pattern here ], and the rest of the Hartshorne Road section).

I may have a few thoughts on this subject......