H2H Series Results?

pixychick

JORBA: Ringwood
JORBA.ORG
Paydirt is in, and results are being checked right now. so, very soon.

Also date and place of awards dinner will be posted and up on bikereg soon too.
 

scalpel6

Member
Pay Dirt?

Are these the final results? We have a guy on our team Juan who raced Expert 19-29 and kicked some ass this year. Out of the 9 races in series he won 6 had a 2nd a 4th and missed one race. According to the results with pay dirt he will finish Third. :hmmm: This is my first year racing so maybe I am missing something but isn't the idea of a racing to win.

I do respect the Idea of Paydirt and try to help when I can. I just have a hard time understanding how picking up a rake can put you at the top of the podium.

Sometimes being a good person and doing the right thing is the only reward you need. Let the racing decide who wins.
 

RogerRacer

New Member
pay dirt is a good thing

scalpel I think your missing the point in the whole pay dirt thing .The trails don't get fix bye them selfs. If thats what they need to help keep the trails going .Well then bye god that's what we have to do .When I was racing motorcycles in newengland [HS] you had to work a race .Or you points did not count. If you every help out puting on a race you never have enough help.So they invented a way to get help.Kind of the same way with the pay dirt.It's all good my Brother.
 

Norm

Mayor McCheese
Team MTBNJ Halter's
Are these the final results? We have a guy on our team Juan who raced Expert 19-29 and kicked some ass this year. Out of the 9 races in series he won 6 had a 2nd a 4th and missed one race. According to the results with pay dirt he will finish Third. :hmmm: This is my first year racing so maybe I am missing something but isn't the idea of a racing to win.

I do respect the Idea of Paydirt and try to help when I can. I just have a hard time understanding how picking up a rake can put you at the top of the podium.

Sometimes being a good person and doing the right thing is the only reward you need. Let the racing decide who wins.

The rules were this way before the races started. That's like losing a football game 30-28 and complaining that you scored more TDs than the other team so you should get the W. Besides, it's not like they take away the 6 wins in the series (which by the rules would mean he should move up to semi-pro, I believe).

To be sure, after looking at the series results it's a bit misleading. I did 5 races, 2 of which were 30th place or higher. I had a few good runs in there but overall I wasn't anything special. But if I had done 3 more races and just finished (DFL) and gotten my Paydirt, I would have come in 5th in the series. That's a bit silly considering my highest finish was 6th. But then then guy who came in 5th never placed higher than 8th. With just the 5 races and no Paydirt, I was 20th. The 10th place guy never did better than 17th. Might seem silly but those are the rules.

I think it's cheesy that only Bulldog/Campmor riders have their team on the results page.
 

scalpel6

Member
The rules were this way before the races started. That's like losing a football game 30-28 and complaining that you scored more TDs than the other team so you should get the W. Besides, it's not like they take away the 6 wins in the series (which by the rules would mean he should move up to semi-pro, I believe).

To be sure, after looking at the series results it's a bit misleading. I did 5 races, 2 of which were 30th place or higher. I had a few good runs in there but overall I wasn't anything special. But if I had done 3 more races and just finished (DFL) and gotten my Paydirt, I would have come in 5th in the series. That's a bit silly considering my highest finish was 6th. But then then guy who came in 5th never placed higher than 8th. With just the 5 races and no Paydirt, I was 20th. The 10th place guy never did better than 17th. Might seem silly but those are the rules.

I think it's cheesy that only Bulldog/Campmor riders have their team on the results page.

I understand that these were the rules before the season started and that everyone had a chance to do paydirt. Keeping with the Football analogy. What if the NFL gave the Colts an extra 10 points tomorrow because they cleaned up the stadium after the game? :D How would that go over? Would the best team have won on the field?

Please don't miss understand me on this. I fully understand these were the rules. Maybe next year they should give more credit for winning races.
 

Norm

Mayor McCheese
Team MTBNJ Halter's
I imagine the Eagles would get more points, as they seem to have the most obnoxious fans in the country. I'm sure that's a dirty stadium.

I would agree that a 5th place finish is a bit heavy of a bonus. Basically if you're arguing your buddy should win, well you're wrong. :) But if you're saying the rules should change for next year, I tend to agree with you. Can't change history (unless you win an election or take over the government), just the future.
 

Wazu

New Member
Humble Opinion

Without free college, carrer training and money do you think people would join the army? Not many would. There would be no carrot at the end of the stick. Without the paydirt, the very trails we train on for racing might not exist to begin with because people love to eat cake but no one wants to make it. Human nature. At the beginning of the season, everyone has the same opportunity to make their H2H standings as high as they can be by doing TM. IMO people who maintain the trails deserve to be put higher in the standings than people who have the time to race but no time to work on the trails. I'm new to racing and I can use every advantage I can get and you can bet your bottom dollar that I'm putting in the max hours allowed for paydirt and I've never done TM in my life. Would I be doing trail maintainence on my precious Sunday mornings if I didn't need the points for the standings? Probably not. Unless I don't understand the rules (its possible), anyone who puts in their max amount of TM can't get passed in the standings by someone with a lesser race record. If someone with paydirt hours passes someone with a better race record in the standings, they wanted to win more. Simple. In my posts my signature is "Worry about what you can control. Let the rest roll off." I have no control with changing the rules or beating better racers but I certainly have control with doing my part in TM.
 

Tonebuckets

Member
I agree with both of you guys. We all knew the pay dirt system at the start of the season so I guess you can make that claim of no excuses, which is true. I think Scalpel6's comments are for discussion on change. Most, not all, have kids and wives and Sunday's are the only day we realistically can get away, and on top of that train. And like some, I work every Saturday. But again, please don't misunderstand me, I know the rules. And if they've tried other methods of getting guys out to help with the trails than we'll all shut up. I just don't think they have. This is the way pay dirt has been for as long as I can remember, about 8 or 9 years now. But I will say that maybe we can start thinking of new ways to get guys(racers) out to do TM? Straight out racing I came in 2nd, without paydirt I came in 3rd. Not a big deal, I can live with that. But in the case of my other teammate I would be quite upset. Like Scalpel said, he won 6 out of 9 races, then had a 2nd and a 4th, and took third in the series. Regarding the question of whether or not he should be semi-pro, honestly not yet. He will be moving up an age category into the expert 30-39 class next year, which is a much faster class. His times this year would have put him 3rd to about 6th in that class. We've actually already discussed this as a team(the possibility of moving up to semi-pro). But anyway, got off the point there for a sec, I think maybe awarding one free entry fee for pay dirt would actually get more guys out to do TM. Just one thought, I'm open to more. Anyway, it's another topic for us bike geeks to talk about that's for sure.

Go JETS!! :getsome: lol
 

NJ-XC-Justin

KY-DH-Freddy
It's 10 hours of work. Over the span of an entire season. I only blame myself for not doing it.

Also, looking at the one poster's friend Juan who finished 3rd when he won several races, it was actually a very close race, and even though he had the most wins, few points separated him from two other riders. Expert's paydirt points are a monster 196 points and he lost by less than 40 points.

6th place for me! 5th for Dave (panhead) -- Nice! 4th for Joe (joedirt) -- nice! Only the sandbaggers beat us! (just kidding rob)
 

anrothar

entirely thrilled
i think free entry to whever does enough tm would be taking money away from the clubs that put the races on. alot of them are put on by the very clubs that are doing the trail maintenance, so i don't think that would necessarily be the best way to go about it, although it would work for getting racers out there i think.
 

jbogner

NYCMTB: President
JORBA.ORG
Would we all pay taxes to cover new roads, public education and all those other nice things we enjoy if the government made taxes optional?

As a racer, race promoter and avid trailbuilder, I'm just not sympathetic to any serious racer who can't make it out for two 5-hour days of trail maintenance. I've got a full time job, a wife, and a 2-year old son and somehow I've still managed to put in several hundred hours of trailwork so far this year. If you're serious about something, you make it happen.

For an expert racer who trains at least 10 hours a week, asking for 10 hours per year should be a no-brainer. For active mountain bikers, trail maintenance is not optional, and if you're that serious about racing to the point where you're following the series standings, you NEED to be serious about trail building and maintenance as well. In many places, the only reason we have access to trails is because we're so active with maintaining them and partnering with the land managers. Paydirt says "being a good MTB citizen is as important as your lactic threshold, max heart rate and technical riding skill."

As roger said, this is not unique to mountain biking. Check out CRCA.net and look at their requirements for racing in central park road races- marshalling is mandatory, and you'll be suspended from racing if you don't marshal. At least Paydirt is optional!

So don't expect paydirt to change. There's about zero chance of the promoters who spend so many hours working on trails doing anything that makes it easier for people to not show up and help. ;)
 

VanDbtRiver

Well-Known Member
dropped points

can someone explain the dropped races rule, from my understanding masters can drop there two lowest scores therefore best seven races are only considered in series points, did i interpret that correctly?
 

pixychick

JORBA: Ringwood
JORBA.ORG
Thanks Jamie for explaining. A few complaints over 11 years is nothing compared to the increase in great trails and race venues. A few years back, there were only a few races a year and two promoters, with one claiming to quit. Paydirt has helped keep racing alive, and this year was suberb in my opinion. Lots of fun races, lots of racers, and lots of great weather. I'm convinced the only reason anyone has complained, is that the weather has been so good, and some people just need to get stuff out. If this is you, you may need another lap ;)

This year was outstanding for paydirt with Highbridge and Jungle habitat being developed for mountain biking. 1000 hours of paydirt went into the building of trails at JH. Without paydirt, those trails would not have been finished nor would the promoter been allowed to hold a race there. Paydirt has helped develope the relationship between promoters and trail builders, as well as the relationship between trail builders and land managers.

If paydirt goes, sponsors go, promoters go and races go. This is not professional Football. This is some of the best grass roots mountain bike racing on public land with real singletrack trails and adventure for many to enjoy. For the diehard racers there is always the big pond, Nationals. I've done it, and the competion is great, but they do not have the kind of trails we have in our races. Our trails are well worth protecting.

On another note, as this seems to come up often. Upgrading to sport and expert is required after certain top finishes. Expert may be the end of the road for many. Most masters will stay there for life. If you are super fast and wish to move up higher to pro or semi-pro, you may petition usacyling and may need top finishes at national level events. You are not required to move up. See usacycling rulebook for details:

http://www.usacycling.org/forms/MTB_rulebook.pdf

Those of you upgrading ... good luck! :)
 

xc62701

Well-Known Member
I understand that these were the rules before the season started and that everyone had a chance to do paydirt. Keeping with the Football analogy. What if the NFL gave the Colts an extra 10 points tomorrow because they cleaned up the stadium after the game? :D How would that go over? Would the best team have won on the field?

Please don't miss understand me on this. I fully understand these were the rules. Maybe next year they should give more credit for winning races.


It is still the idea that the best racer should win the series. That's assuming that all people will do the trail maintenance because it's the right thing to do - not just because it's required.
 

Norm

Mayor McCheese
Team MTBNJ Halter's
Holy crap, it just occured to me that Tony would have won sport 30-39 with the Paydirt points! Oh cruel fate!!! (Of course Rave would have won outright with Paydirt.)

So I guess in sport they drop the bottom 2 races? There's only 1 highlighted as being dropped but it seems as if they actually drop 2.

On Paydirt, it's out of proportion. You could come in DFL in our class for every race but with the Paydirt points you would be 11th overall for the year.
 
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