ryderX
Well-Known Member
Good work, though I think your process maybe flawed. You need to do the math only for the racers that competed in the complete series. It may not make a large difference though it'd be interesting to see the results.
PlayAllDay
Member
yep, that's what I was getting at too.
monkey boy
Self-Imposed Exile
No TM, = unsustainable trails,= no trails,= no where to train,= no racing. No worries.
Keep in mind the MTB community does about %90 of all the trail maintence I have ever seen. Lewis Morris was a nightmare until mountain biklers went in and fixed it. Jungle Habitat was built with all MTB labor. Wayway same thing. I am sure I could go on.
Quit yer bitchin & go out and get some time in or ride faster than the ones who do. very simple.
Yeah my tm bumbed me up to something like 42 place I'll take it.
I think that if everyone who does more than the 10 hours actually reported the hours that the results would be very very different.
Also TM hours gives you the ability to drop a race if needed. Just in case something other than the bike requires your time.
as opposed to constantly finding problems with the current system why not come up with realistic solutions. and present them in an appropiate way.
Whining on a website is not going to get to the bottom of a problem.
Y'all may remember after the JH race I put up a survey about timing. it came out pretty much dead even. no useable data, so I dropped the issue with the race organisers I know and moved on.
Keep in mind the MTB community does about %90 of all the trail maintence I have ever seen. Lewis Morris was a nightmare until mountain biklers went in and fixed it. Jungle Habitat was built with all MTB labor. Wayway same thing. I am sure I could go on.
Quit yer bitchin & go out and get some time in or ride faster than the ones who do. very simple.
Yeah my tm bumbed me up to something like 42 place I'll take it.
I think that if everyone who does more than the 10 hours actually reported the hours that the results would be very very different.
Also TM hours gives you the ability to drop a race if needed. Just in case something other than the bike requires your time.
as opposed to constantly finding problems with the current system why not come up with realistic solutions. and present them in an appropiate way.
Whining on a website is not going to get to the bottom of a problem.
Y'all may remember after the JH race I put up a survey about timing. it came out pretty much dead even. no useable data, so I dropped the issue with the race organisers I know and moved on.
Please, not the "no whining" argument again. Tranquilo, Tonebuckets and Vreeland are welcome to present other ideas (as they have)... this is the internet after all, and what would it be without arguments. On the flip side, others of us are welcome to make solid arguments about how they're wrong. And the promoters in the H2H are welcome to ignore it altogether and make their own decisions.
I agree that the participation rate is lower than it should be. But that's hardly a reason for getting rid of the entire system. Maybe the major teams like Campmor and Bulldog (and of course MTBNJ.com
) should take the lead in making filing paydirt mandatory for team membership? I know any NYCMTB racers next year will be doing it and filing it. And if other racers in contention KNEW that the folks they were racing against were definitely doing it and filing it, that peer pressure would really up participation...
Team Bulldog, Black Bear Cycling and Team Campmor make doing paydirt a team requirement also. I think this is a great idea. I think all the local teams that care about mountain biking, should do the same. It just sets a good example right from thr start. It is always a good idea to have some sort of community service job as part of an up and coming top racing program anyway, and one that keeps it's program running is brilliant!.
At Ringwood we have had the fastest guy in NJ working side by side with a non racing 70 year old as equals sharing a passion. It's a beautiful thing, and you may not understand it, until you try it. The system was designed to not only build relationships between bikers and land managers, but to build relationships and mutual respect between race promoters and trail maintainers, as well building realtionships and mutual respect between racers and trail maintainers.
At Ringwood we have had the fastest guy in NJ working side by side with a non racing 70 year old as equals sharing a passion. It's a beautiful thing, and you may not understand it, until you try it. The system was designed to not only build relationships between bikers and land managers, but to build relationships and mutual respect between race promoters and trail maintainers, as well building realtionships and mutual respect between racers and trail maintainers.
Tonebuckets
Member
JBogner thank you for that. I thought I was in no way "whining," just merely voicing my opinion on some things I thought were important. It's also the reason I've stated in every post something to the fact about how I agree with doing TM and I'm not just "whining." I'm bringing these issues up to see if we can collectively come up with better ways for actually getting more racers out there to do TM, and at the same time not affect the scores so adversely.
I also concede the numbers could very well be deceiving. I just thought it was interesting that we had 463 different sport men show up throughout the season, so how can we get more of those involved to do TM or to do more than one race? Maybe it's not possible, and most likely the system won't change, and like Jeffstick stated, everyone might as well start thinking of your paydirt now for next year. I agree. But, at the very least, it gets people at least thinking about change.
I also think Pixyckick had a good idea, that teams should take more responsibility and make it a requirement to do TM.
You're right Monkeyboy, no worries, I beat you even with your TM. :hmmm:
(Maybe you should have read all my posts on the topic before you attacked me?)
I also concede the numbers could very well be deceiving. I just thought it was interesting that we had 463 different sport men show up throughout the season, so how can we get more of those involved to do TM or to do more than one race? Maybe it's not possible, and most likely the system won't change, and like Jeffstick stated, everyone might as well start thinking of your paydirt now for next year. I agree. But, at the very least, it gets people at least thinking about change.
I also think Pixyckick had a good idea, that teams should take more responsibility and make it a requirement to do TM.
You're right Monkeyboy, no worries, I beat you even with your TM. :hmmm:
(Maybe you should have read all my posts on the topic before you attacked me?)
Yes, please Monkey Boy, lose the "whining" stuff. You're a good poster overall you don't need to go there. Besides, it's really just playing right into my over-reactionary post of the other night.
To me, Tony's numbers suggest that the Paydirt system does need to be revamped a bit. 260 sport class hours of TM is great, but it can/should be higher. So how to make that bigger in 2008?
* Approach teams on an individual basis and discuss required/recommended TM participation (I have been approached offline about this a few weeks ago)
* Consider 5 hours of TM mandatory to place in the season results
* Consider a scaled system, where you get 10 points/hour of TM with a max of 100.
* Heavily advertise that this is the way things work, period. I imagine some of these racers simply did not know. Maybe a little public awareness will help...like this thread
As for the MTBNJ team, it wasn't a requirement when we started things up so I need to talk to people on an individual basis to see what works for them. I have some TM goals in mind for 07/08 and at some point we can post the team numbers. I'm told that Bulldog and Campmor both require racers to do 5 hours of TM, which is roughly the ballpark I had in mind. But again, I need to speak to the team about that since nobody jumped on board with the idea they would be required to do TM. Still, I'll do my best to browbeat them all
To me, Tony's numbers suggest that the Paydirt system does need to be revamped a bit. 260 sport class hours of TM is great, but it can/should be higher. So how to make that bigger in 2008?
* Approach teams on an individual basis and discuss required/recommended TM participation (I have been approached offline about this a few weeks ago)
* Consider 5 hours of TM mandatory to place in the season results
* Consider a scaled system, where you get 10 points/hour of TM with a max of 100.
* Heavily advertise that this is the way things work, period. I imagine some of these racers simply did not know. Maybe a little public awareness will help...like this thread
As for the MTBNJ team, it wasn't a requirement when we started things up so I need to talk to people on an individual basis to see what works for them. I have some TM goals in mind for 07/08 and at some point we can post the team numbers. I'm told that Bulldog and Campmor both require racers to do 5 hours of TM, which is roughly the ballpark I had in mind. But again, I need to speak to the team about that since nobody jumped on board with the idea they would be required to do TM. Still, I'll do my best to browbeat them all
One small and painless-to-implement systemic change would be allowing racers who complete and file their paydirt early in the season to have it reflected in the series overall standings as it's filed. Now that the standings are being updated fairly regularly (thanks H2H!), seeing some in their class with those points would definitely motivate other racers to get out there and do 'em. And for Kevin who processes paydirt, it would mean a more even flow of paperwork rather than an end-of-the-season crunch...
scalpel6
Member
TM should just be a requirement for racers that want to participate in the series. The Mid Atlantic series requires you to pay $20 to participate in there series. Why can't H2H just make 10 Hours required to be part of there series. This would accomplish two things: 1) More people will be out doing TM, 5.6% of sport racers doing TM is just to low 2) RACING will decide who wins the series
I just have a problem with a RACE Series being influenced by Paydirt. The series scoring is already set up to keep things competive though all 9 races. Which may be needed to keep interest but I think it promotes a water downed series champ. I believe it was mentioned earlier that more value should be given to the top 5 places. This is something to consider :hmmm:
In the case of my teamamte who won 6 of the 9 races and didn't win the series (He is 3rd). Shame on him for not doing the TM. He dominated his class but didn't do everything that was required of a racer. I would be embarrest to lose the series this way. However, I would be equally embarrest to win the series because of Paydirt. At the end of the day, the guys he raced against know who was the fastest racer.
I will never understand those who resist new ideas:hmmm:
This is a great series but like everything it could always improve. Why shouldn't the NJ,NY,CT, and PA area have the best race series in the county. :getsome:
I just have a problem with a RACE Series being influenced by Paydirt. The series scoring is already set up to keep things competive though all 9 races. Which may be needed to keep interest but I think it promotes a water downed series champ. I believe it was mentioned earlier that more value should be given to the top 5 places. This is something to consider :hmmm:
In the case of my teamamte who won 6 of the 9 races and didn't win the series (He is 3rd). Shame on him for not doing the TM.
He dominated his class but didn't do everything that was required of a racer. I would be embarrest to lose the series this way. However, I would be equally embarrest to win the series because of Paydirt. At the end of the day, the guys he raced against know who was the fastest racer.I will never understand those who resist new ideas:hmmm:
This is a great series but like everything it could always improve. Why shouldn't the NJ,NY,CT, and PA area have the best race series in the county. :getsome:
Fwiw
This is recreational racing. In the end all you win is bragging rights, a jersey at best. I usually give mine to the people that support my racing.
What else do you want to use those results for? Sponsorship? Well, most sponsors require you to be an active participant in the biking community, and that includes TM.
Anything that helps create more trails, preserve existing ones and help access to parks is positive in my book.
Maurice
This is recreational racing. In the end all you win is bragging rights, a jersey at best. I usually give mine to the people that support my racing.
What else do you want to use those results for? Sponsorship? Well, most sponsors require you to be an active participant in the biking community, and that includes TM.
Anything that helps create more trails, preserve existing ones and help access to parks is positive in my book.
Maurice
xc62701
Well-Known Member
TM should just be a requirement for racers that want to participate in the series. The Mid Atlantic series requires you to pay $20 to participate in there series. Why can't H2H just make 10 Hours required to be part of there series. This would accomplish two things: 1) More people will be out doing TM, 5.6% of sport racers doing TM is just to low 2) RACING will decide who wins the series
I just have a problem with a RACE Series being influenced by Paydirt. The series scoring is already set up to keep things competive though all 9 races. Which may be needed to keep interest but I think it promotes a water downed series champ. I believe it was mentioned earlier that more value should be given to the top 5 places. This is something to consider :hmmm:
In the case of my teamamte who won 6 of the 9 races and didn't win the series (He is 3rd). Shame on him for not doing the TM.
I will never understand those who resist new ideas:hmmm:
This is a great series but like everything it could always improve. Why shouldn't the NJ,NY,CT, and PA area have the best race series in the county. :getsome:
All opinions aside it's right in the rules. Do paydirt and get an extra 5th place finish. If you risk not doing paydirt, those that are near you will be put ahead of you because of the rules. If you choose to be ignorant of the rules that's your own fault. Enough said. Stop whining... This season is over, be constructive and help with the planning process for next year if your so motivated that this year's rules were wrong.
scalpel6
Member
Again, I will never understand people that resist new ideas :hmmm: I believe having a disusion about what was good and bad is healthy for the series. What could be more constructive then this site and the thoughts that have been genarated from this thread. There seems to be alot of smart people out there why not listen. (Tonebuckets not included
)Maurice, I agree 100% this is only rec racing and what do you really get for winning. A picture with NORM
That is why I said at the end of the day, the guys he raced against know who was the fastest racer.I never cared much about the series. I race when I can, I do TM when I can, but most of all its all about having some laughs with my friends.
My thoughts exactly. I already have a new paydirt proposal in the works for next year. My goal is to get hours in automatically as they happen and for all mountain bikers, not just racers. Plus a public viewing of the totals at all times. Something to inspire people to get out there and get excited about building new trails and getting involved. We are working on it!!
I guess great minds think alike...
That would be a very cool system, and would also enable our inter-club TM cup! Anyone on this forum handy with PHP-based web app programming?
Maybe. What's it worth to ya?
Oh, now this would be way cool. Given the competitiveness of some of us out here, what better way to inspire us to put in more TM hours than to have a running tally. By the way, where are the rules on how you get credit for TM?
Paydirt credit for every hour you spend on it?
Deal! But only if you call it PayDork.