H2H Series Results?

[Norm]

Tony, you should post more often. Your posts are often well though out and add to the discussion.

The problem I see with a free entry is this. The H2H series isn't a single entity. It's 9 individual races that collect money and try to cover costs on an individual basis. So if Town Cycle comps you the Jungle Habitat race for free, the other 8 promoters don't send a check for $3 each to cover that cost. It's just money off the top of their bottom line. And I imagine it's an effort to make ends meet when they host these races.

I think the idea of a 5th place finish taking your lowest counted score is a fine one. But that's from a racer's perspective. The more I think about it, the more it seems that the rule really is this: If you want to be counted in the season results, you need to do get your Paydirt. It's not a formal/written rule. And your name does still show up in the overall standings. But, well, you know.

In the end, does it really matter? If some guy is ranked #1 in the WTA tennis rankings, but some other guy won all 4 of the Grand Slam tournaments, is there a question of who was the best tennis player this year? Your teammate who won 6 of 9 races was clearly the best racer in the category.

 

[xc62701]

What's tennis? Do you need a bike to play that?

 

[jbogner]

A couple things- I think that everyone in contention for the series should personally view paydirt as mandatory, not optional, if they're looking to win. If you look at it that way, and are willing to accept a penalty equivalent to a 5th place finish for not doing trailwork, then that's your choice. I can't see how anyone hoping for a top finish in the series wouldn't do paydirt- for all the time and money people spend shaving grams off their race bikes, you'd think they wouldn't overlook something so blatantly simple. I guess the H2H could make paydirt mandatory for all series contenders next year if people are really too dense to understand that skipping it will take you out of top contention- make it a yes/no with those who don't file paydirt not even listed on the series overall charts?

On the points structure, as in all series point structures in all sports, the goal is not to give the series outright to the guy who places first in the first couple races, the goal is to keep the series competitive as far into the season as possible. Therefore the points are tight at the top and you get considerable credit just for showing up. If the points were more spread out, it would be easier for the top guys to lock up their places earlier in the season and then coast through the end, and what fun would that be? I like that it's usually a race to the very end of the season, where the finish order in the last race can still change the overall standings. That keeps people interested deeper into the season, and lets guys who may have a slow start to the season get into form and still be competitive. But the person who's the fastest, the most consistent, and does their paydirt will still win the series, no matter what the point structure.

As far as the team names go, I think we ALL would appreciate the team names listed next to the racers names. It's the only fair thing to racers with team and sponsor obligations. I can only assume that the results as posted are preliminary, and the complete results with team names are forthcoming?

 

[Norm]

Jamie - good post. You could easily get your Paydirt points for 2008 before Christmas 2007.

As far as the team names go, I think we ALL would appreciate the team names listed next to the racers names. It's the only fair thing to racers with team and sponsor obligations. I can only assume that the results as posted are preliminary, and the complete results with team names are forthcoming?

My guess is that the list is provided without team names at all, and whoever posts the lists goes in and adds the bulldog/campmor affiliation. They probably have no idea what teams most of the people ride for.

I think during the season results were generally posted without team names. There were a few exceptions but for the most part I think that was the case.

 

[jbogner]

Jamie - good post. You could easily get your Paydirt points for 2008 before Christmas 2007.

I'm sure I'll have double or triple the required hours for paydirt by the end of the year, now that we're building trails on Staten Island. Now if only we could develop a system where those of us with all those extra banked hours could sell the paydirt time to those with the money but not the time...

My guess is that the list is provided without team names at all, and whoever posts the lists goes in and adds the bulldog/campmor affiliation. They probably have no idea what teams most of the people ride for.

I think during the season results were generally posted without team names. There were a few exceptions but for the most part I think that was the case.

Going forward, it's something that all the races do need to do consistently. I didn't love typing in all the team names and license numbers from the day-of entries into our race results, but it's definitely important to the racers, their teams, and their sponsors.

 

[Norm]

Going forward, it's something that all the races do need to do consistently. I didn't love typing in all the team names and license numbers from the day-of entries into our race results, but it's definitely important to the racers, their teams, and their sponsors.

Perhaps the day-of-event registration should be more than +$5? It would make life a lot easier for the promoters to be able to C&P than to type things in manually. The more people who pre-register would presumably make life easier for you?

As a promoter, what areas of the scoring/registering/etc do you think requires the most work and/or introduces the most potential for error?

 

[guava]

I jumped a bunch of places due to paydirt, from 10th to 7th. I always felt that there should be a different way to get people to du TM, without skewing the race standings. i am not nearly the raceday threat i would like to be, but never the less i like the standings to reflect pure competition. i did my Tm fro a few reasons. one is that i always do Tm anyway. Another is that i wasn't sure if overall standings would get me into Mt snow next year, since I don't have any standout results this year to punch my ticket. The first 5 hours were mandatory anyway for me as a member of Team Campmor, which is absolutely cool with me. When I was told about the final results, I was uncomfortable about getting 7th when i earned 10th, but then i was told that I was THE ONLY ONE IN MY CLASS TO REGISTER FOR PAYDIRT! I didn't feel bad about it afetr that, because I thought it was embarrassing that we as a class were either too lazy or more likely too selfishly focused on training and race results to do any TM. I still say that it would make more sense to say that you must do 5 hours of TM to be considered for the overall series, or you will not be listed in the overall results. that would get far more people out, for a more managable commitment. BTW, I was also disapointed to never see my team affiliation mentioned in results. We have a lot of podium finishers on our team, and we all want to rep our team, as our sponsors have been so awsome this year. I think it would add a fun demension to the series if team rivalries and recognition develop. We would see more Teams eventually as a result which would make for a more organized and visable cycling community, and potentially bring more money and political clout to the sport.

 

[tranquilo]

I jumped a bunch of places due to paydirt, from 10th to 7th. I always felt that there should be a different way to get people to du TM, without skewing the race standings. i am not nearly the raceday threat i would like to be, but never the less i like the standings to reflect pure competition. i did my Tm fro a few reasons. one is that i always do Tm anyway. Another is that i wasn't sure if overall standings would get me into Mt snow next year, since I don't have any standout results this year to punch my ticket. The first 5 hours were mandatory anyway for me as a member of Team Campmor, which is absolutely cool with me. When I was told about the final results, I was uncomfortable about getting 7th when i earned 10th, but then i was told that I was THE ONLY ONE IN MY CLASS TO REGISTER FOR PAYDIRT! I didn't feel bad about it afetr that, because I thought it was embarrassing that we as a class were either too lazy or more likely too selfishly focused on training and race results to do any TM. I still say that it would make more sense to say that you must do 5 hours of TM to be considered for the overall series, or you will not be listed in the overall results. that would get far more people out, for a more managable commitment. BTW, I was also disapointed to never see my team affiliation mentioned in results. We have a lot of podium finishers on our team, and we all want to rep our team, as our sponsors have been so awsome this year. I think it would add a fun demension to the series if team rivalries and recognition develop. We would see more Teams eventually as a result which would make for a more organized and visable cycling community, and potentially bring more money and political clout to the sport.

I like your post and your attitude. Good on ya for getting out there and doing TM. I would suggest that there probably were more people in your class who did TM as you did, not for Paydirt but out of a sense of personal responsibility and satisfaction.

 

[Steve Vai]

As a late chime in here...I'm one of those people who got bumped from not doing any "Official Paydirt" TM this year...I'm also probrally one of the few expert riders other than Greg who has a wife and 2 kids, so just getting out to race is a challenge, never mind taking a Sunday off to rake somewhere...TM is important, and there are plenty of single guys out there to do it...Racing should be racing...Raking should be raking...There should be an extra TM competition, that way the slow-pokes can have a chance...

 

[jbogner]

Heck, I've taken days off work to do trailbuilding and maintenance, in addition to those weekend days spent raking. I know how hard it is to make time for that plus riding, and that's why most of our trailbuilding is focused between November and April.

If you're looking for hours for '08, Jim, we're building trails at Wolfe's Pond Park in Staten Island (a mere 8 miles away from you) and will be working at them this off-season. Bank em early and you won't have to worry about them next year.

Racing's not just racing if you don't have trails to race on. Same goes for road cycling- no racing if you don't have marshalls to make it safe, so everyone has to give up some of their time. Just remember, if it were easy, everyone would be doing it.

 

[tranquilo]

Heck, I've taken days off work to do trailbuilding and maintenance, in addition to those weekend days spent raking. I know how hard it is to make time for that plus riding, and that's why most of our trailbuilding is focused between November and April.

Racing's not just racing if you don't have trails to race on. Same goes for road cycling- no racing if you don't have marshalls to make it safe, so everyone has to give up some of their time. Just remember, if it were easy, everyone would be doing it.

TM falls under the larger umbrella of being a mounatin biker, not under the small tent that is racing. I'm 100% for TM and I take time not just doing it, but leading work days as a NEMBA trail boss and scoping out potential projects with the heads of other user groups. But racing and TM, IMHO, are completely distinct. I prefer to not have them linked, that's why I don't claim hours with H2H and why you won't see any Paydirt accumulated next to my name. Racing IS racing, and race results should determine series standings.

 

[Steve Vai]

I would be interested in off-season TM hours, post 'em when they're scheduled...And Tranquilo, you hit my point exactly!! I race road, XC, and cross...They don't add points to your standing for marshalling a crit or taping off a cross course, so they shouldn't do it in mountain bike racing either...

 

[Joeskin]

6th place for me! 5th for Dave (panhead) -- Nice! 4th for Joe (joedirt) -- nice! Only the sandbaggers beat us! (just kidding rob)

Thanks. It was a good effort from the bunch. You and Dave would've beat me if not for the Ringwood mishaps. We'll have to ride more in the off season to prepare for next year.

Joe

 

[jbogner]

They don't add points to your standing for marshalling a crit or taping off a cross course, so they shouldn't do it in mountain bike racing either...

I guess the H2H could just make the semantic change and call it "mandatory" for those contesting the series, if that would make people feel better. Same net result, just not tied to the points.

Will definitely post up TM dates as we set them.

How about adding a TM cup amongst the various clubs and teams in the H2H. Get a local microbrewery to sponsor that one, with the club who logs the most TM winning a couple kegs from said brewery. Now *that's* a competition!

 

[KenS]

They don't add points to your standing for marshalling a crit or taping off a cross course, so they shouldn't do it in mountain bike racing either...

They also dont contribute to the degradation of the road. TM to a MTB racer should be a moral obligation. Paydirt just adds motivation.

I am calling BS on any serious racer who claims to have no time for TM. Cut out training rides if you have to...the TM will be easier and more productive than those training hours

In all seriousness, I really hope the racing community is also embracing JORBA. There are folks literally working their asses completely off to ensure you have access to trails in NJ. Please consider joining and helping us create a unified voice.

 

[Norm]

They also dont contribute to the degradation of the road. TM to a MTB racer should be a moral obligation. Paydirt just adds motivation.

I am calling BS on any serious racer who claims to have no time for TM. Cut out training rides if you have to...the TM will be easier and more productive than those training hours

In all seriousness, I really hope the racing community is also embracing JORBA. There are folks literally working their asses completely off to ensure you have access to trails in NJ. Please consider joining and helping us create a unified voice.

Flippin right! Give JORBA members yet another 5th place finish. Hells yes!

 

[PlayAllDay]

A couple things- I think that everyone in contention for the series should personally view paydirt as mandatory, not optional, if they're looking to win. If you look at it that way, and are willing to accept a penalty equivalent to a 5th place finish for not doing trailwork, then that's your choice. I can't see how anyone hoping for a top finish in the series wouldn't do paydirt-

Completely agree. I can't believe anyone would be surprised that someone who did TM got more points and got ahead. If you're doing the H2H series, you should know that TM gives you points, plain and simple. I really enjoy doing TM regardless of where I may place in the standings. I even work Sundays and many Saturdays and still make the time for more than enough hours of TM, because it's the right thing to do.

 

[Tonebuckets]

Just to throw more fuel on the fire I did some quick calculations. And I'm sure there will be some backlash but I thought these numbers were staggering. I guess this is why I keep discussing the issue of paydirt. Again, I want to reiterate, that I am a complete advocate of getting us racers out there to do TM. But to do that more effectively I think the system is ready for a change, for the better I may add.

Anyway, I tallied up the amount of total racers, just in the men's sport category, from the five different age groups (15-18, 19-29, 30-39, 40-49, 50+) and the SS group. Out of 463 racers, 26 did TM. That's a 5.6% success rate. Now, I don't know about you, but those are numbers that can't be ignored. Let the games begin.

 

[tranquilo]

Nice numbers work Tonebuckets. So at 5.6%, I guess you have to question the effectiveness of the curent setup. Perhaps there should be separate awards just for TM. You can give ponts for "Fastest Shoveler," "Most Swings With Pick Axe," "Most Boulders Moved," "Most Blistered Hands," and the biggest price of all, "Largest Prybar." We can have cash awards for each prize, that will really get more people out doing TM, probably more than 5.6%, and we can keep the race results focused on what actually matters in a race: race results.

 

[PlayAllDay]

Still don't see the big deal. Why is this a problem this year but never was a problem before? I think the results only show that more racers need to do TM. Also, I bet many of those racers have only done 1 or 2 races and were not really in it for the series. If you're in it for the series, do the tm. This is a great series and I don't think anything needs to change regarding paydirt.