H2H Series Results?

[anrothar]

not if everyone else got their paydirt points. i believe that's the point, norm. it makes an uneven playing field if you don't make the time to give back to the trails. and no, your exorbitant entry fee is not enough in the way of giving back. paydirt is incentive for people to get their ten measly hours of tm in per year. as others have said, it's really not that much at all when you think about it. if you're that worried that someone is going to beat you if they get their paydirt points, then get your paydirt points and you'll have nothing to worry about.

 

[Eileen]

This is my first year racing. I knew about Paydirt in the beginning of the season, but I didn't know how much of a difference that it could make in the final standings. I also didn't know how about the awesome job that everyone does maintaining the trails and how much work really goes into it. I want to get more involved next year, not just for the points, but because it's I love the trails and it's the right thing to do. I earned second place, but got dropped down to third because I didn't do Paydirt. If I had done Paydirt I would have won. It's a lesson learned for next year.

 

[Wazu]

Amen

I also didn't know how about the awesome job that everyone does maintaining the trails and how much work really goes into it. I want to get more involved next year, not just for the points, but because it's I love the trails and it's the right thing to do.

Well said. I echo your sentiments Eileen. Does trail maintenance now count for the 2008 season I wonder.

 

[tranquilo]

TM good, Paydirt bad.

I do TM and so should everybody, but I'd be ASHAMED if I bumped someone out of the standings due to any factor outside of actually racing.

As far as how the points work, I respectfully suggest that top-5 finishes be weighted heavier, with a win being substantially higher than 2nd, and so on. I would also suggest that a DNF not merit quite as many points. It seems odd that a 1st place Expert finish merit only 240 points while a 16th gets you 140 and a DNF 60. IMHO

Additionally, it is absolutely farsical that the only team association that shows up in the standings is Campmor/Bulldog.

GO PATS!!!

 

[pixychick]

Well said. I echo your sentiments Eileen. Does trail maintenance now count for the 2008 season I wonder.

Yes, it counts for next year.

 

[Norm]

not if everyone else got their paydirt points. i believe that's the point, norm. it makes an uneven playing field if you don't make the time to give back to the trails. and no, your exorbitant entry fee is not enough in the way of giving back. paydirt is incentive for people to get their ten measly hours of tm in per year. as others have said, it's really not that much at all when you think about it. if you're that worried that someone is going to beat you if they get their paydirt points, then get your paydirt points and you'll have nothing to worry about.

The flaw in your argument here is that if it really were that crucially important, Paydirt would be required to place in the standings at all.

I remain puzzled how a product that you pay for, in this case a race, time and again seems to be some sort of Holy Land of "you can not question anything about this setup" area. Someone complains about timing? Slow results? Trail access? Starting on time? Correct results? All too often any questioning of this gets met with the insinuation that you can take a flying leap at a rolling doughnut. Is the H2H party line really, "pay your $25 and STFU"? Sometimes it seems that way.

Additionally, it is absolutely farsical that the only team association that shows up in the standings is Campmor/Bulldog.

Indeed. I'm glad someone agrees with me. I'm sure we'll both be told about the doughnut any minute now...

 

[anrothar]

The flaw in your argument here is that if it really were that crucially important, Paydirt would be required to place in the standings at all.

I remain puzzled how a product that you pay for, in this case a race, time and again seems to be some sort of Holy Land of "you can not question anything about this setup" area. Someone complains about timing? Slow results? Trail access? Starting on time? Correct results? All too often any questioning of this gets met with the insinuation that you can take a flying leap at a rolling doughnut. Is the H2H party line really, "pay your $25 and STFU"? Sometimes it seems that way.



Indeed. I'm glad someone agrees with me. I'm sure we'll both be told about the doughnut any minute now...

once you pay the entry fee, you are not actually required to do anything. if it was mandatory, there would be revolt. you can't tell people what to do, only make it better for them if they do what you want them to.

noone is saying you can't disagree. but it seems like you are crying victim every time that you disagree with something about a race and someone who agrees chimes in with their point of view. you're coming out with an arguement, then basically saying everyone is wrong to take up the other side(for reasons other than the meat of the arguement).

 

[Norm]

once you pay the entry fee, you are not actually required to do anything. if it was mandatory, there would be revolt. you can't tell people what to do, only make it better for them if they do what you want them to.

Actually the more I think about it, the more I think it could be as simple as if you don't do the required TM, you don't qualify for season results. The MASS series has something like that but it's cash based. If you want to be counted in the season standings you need to register. Otherwise you're just a one-off.

noone is saying you can't disagree. but it seems like you are crying victim every time that you disagree with something about a race and someone who agrees chimes in with their point of view. you're coming out with an arguement, then basically saying everyone is wrong to take up the other side(for reasons other than the meat of the arguement).

How do you figure? My first few posts on the subject were defending the system and results. I think you should take that into consideration before you make such accusations as well as my defending the criticisms of the Ringwood race. May aim here is, and has always been, to try to strike a balance between sides, between the racers and promoters. I'm absolutely always open to both sides of the argument. To be honest, in the past we've had people come on here and say plain and simple, "do it your self if you don't like it." I just don't think that's a useful answer and I'm going to say as much.

What bugs me about your post is the expression "ten measly hours" when referring to TM. I know a guy who does these races who has 3 kids and recently got divorced. It's bothersome that the argument is that if a guy like this, who has to balance all of this stuff in his real life, can't find the time to do TM, then tough shit on him. Maybe I'm strange, but it always bothers me when people try to impose their values on everyone else like that. I see the same thing with the cost of the races. If Fred Biker thinks that $25 is too rich for his lifestyle, that should be the end of it. But some people berate Fred Biker for having this opinion.

In the end, I still have to wake up for work tomorrow.

 

[ryderX]

Additionally, it is absolutely farsical that the only team association that shows up in the standings is Campmor/Bulldog.

GO PATS!!!

What are you talking about ? Have you even checked the standings ?
http://www.teambulldog.com/results.html

 

[chxracer]

pay dirt

I do agree that someone needs to maintain the trails and paydirt is a way to get everyone riding those trails to maintain them. But lets take Michael Rave for example, I personally know that he put in hours way beyond the ten required for pay dirt, working on the trails for BOTH Stewart races AND the dark horse 40. Yet he lost 1st place due to paydirt. At the end of the day a win should be a win. I think that if the paydirt 5th place finish replaced one of the races you competed in instead off adding a whole additional race to the points would make more sense.

Oh by the way Ryan, did you get my Diet Pepsi at Blue?

Paul

 

[ryderX]

I think it's cheesy that only Bulldog/Campmor riders have their team on the results page.

What are talking about ?
http://www.teambulldog.com/results.html

 

[Norm]

What are you talking about ? Have you even checked the standings ?
http://www.teambulldog.com/results.html

Yes, the only racers who have the "team" column filled out on the results page are those on the Campmor/Bulldog team. Darkhorse Cycles, Pure Foods/Halters, Montclair Bikery, High Gear, Marty's, and the storied MTBNJ.com team are all absent from the results page, as well as many others I'm sure I missed.

 

[ryderX]

:hmmm:

 

[Wazu]

I do TM and so should everybody, but I'd be ASHAMED if I bumped someone out of the standings due to any factor outside of actually racing.

The racer with no TM is the one who should be ashamed. Putting a larger point gap is a very very good idea cept that it tells racers that their TM prolly won't even matter so why do any. This is a great little thread and something that is great to talk about to get a general concensus of what people are thinking.

 

[anrothar]

How do you figure? My first few posts on the subject were defending the system and results. I think you should take that into consideration before you make such accusations as well as my defending the criticisms of the Ringwood race. May aim here is, and has always been, to try to strike a balance between sides, between the racers and promoters. I'm absolutely always open to both sides of the argument. To be honest, in the past we've had people come on here and say plain and simple, "do it your self if you don't like it." I just don't think that's a useful answer and I'm going to say as much.

that may in fact be what you truely intend, but the above paragraph paints an entirely different picture of you than this:

"I remain puzzled how a product that you pay for, in this case a race, time and again seems to be some sort of Holy Land of "you can not question anything about this setup" area. Someone complains about timing? Slow results? Trail access? Starting on time? Correct results? All too often any questioning of this gets met with the insinuation that you can take a flying leap at a rolling doughnut. Is the H2H party line really, "pay your $25 and STFU"? Sometimes it seems that way."

that really makes it come off as you being upset and whining about that fact that people aren't unanimously backing your point up.

What bugs me about your post is the expression "ten measly hours" when referring to TM. I know a guy who does these races who has 3 kids and recently got divorced. It's bothersome that the argument is that if a guy like this, who has to balance all of this stuff in his real life, can't find the time to do TM, then tough shit on him. Maybe I'm strange, but it always bothers me when people try to impose their values on everyone else like that. I see the same thing with the cost of the races. If Fred Biker thinks that $25 is too rich for his lifestyle, that should be the end of it. But some people berate Fred Biker for having this opinion.

In the end, I still have to wake up for work tomorrow.

i'm not saying it's 'tough shit' on the guy who can't manage to put aside 20hrs(to include getting to and from tm, even though he could coordinate a training ride with it), i'm just saying that the response to him should be 'tough shit' if he complains about paydirt. that's like taking the shorter, more direct route somewhere, while your buddy takes the backroads and a little more time, then bitching and moaning because he didn't have to pay a toll.

if Fred Biker voices his disagreement with the entry fee in a way that berates the promoters for having said entry fee, then Fred Biker can expect to get berated in return.

 

[Norm]

that really makes it come off as you being upset and whining about that fact that people aren't unanimously backing your point up.

I'm not at all suggesting that everyone needs to agree with me - that would make for pretty lame conversation. Certainly not my intention and I admit I was sort of replying to the past 6 months of responses like "tough shit" and "do it yourself" and the like, not necessarily to your comment. So it may seem overly stated. Apologies if it came off as a bit reactionary.

if Fred Biker voices his disagreement with the entry fee in a way that berates the promoters for having said entry fee, then Fred Biker can expect to get berated in return.

Without question, agreed. See my reply to Biz in the Ringwood thread.

 

[tranquilo]

What are you talking about ? Have you even checked the standings ?
http://www.teambulldog.com/results.html

Yes. Have you?
1 Francisco Luis 0 2 228 4 204 2 228 2 228 1 240 2 228 1 240 5 196 1792 1596 1 $G$8 TRUE 1552
2 Ledonne Chris 1 240 3 216 5 196 6 188 4 204 6 188 1 240 2 228 4 204 1904 1528 7 $M$9 FALSE 352
3 Waggoner Greg 4 204 4 204 15 144 4 204 5 196 2 228 3 216 4 204 3 216 1816 1476 5 $K$10 FALSE -88
4 Kelley Brian 5 196 8 172 8 172 7 180 8 172 5 196 0 5 196 0 1284 1284 13 $S$11 FALSE -180
5 Mancuso Steve 8 172 14 148 DNF 60 12 156 10 164 3 216 5 196 0 6 188 1300 1240 15 $U$12 FALSE 1568
6 Habig Danny 9 168 9 168 14 148 11 160 11 160 7 180 4 204 0 9 168 1356 1208 15 $U$13 FALSE -124
7 Swift Jeremy 15 144 18 132 20 124 13 152 0 DNF 60 0 9 168 11 160 196 1136 1136 9 $O$14 FALSE -308
8 Pearson Alex 11 160 12 156 16 140 0 0 11 160 9 168 8 172 10 164 1120 1120 7 $M$15 FALSE -140
9 Vreeland Jim 21 120 22 120 11 160 14 148 13 152 0 13 152 6 188 DNF 60 1100 1040 11 $Q$16 FALSE 1548
10 Jurczak Steve 0 0 0 5 196 6 188 4 204 DNF 60 0 2 228 876 876 1 $G$17 TRUE -364
11 Foco Roger 6 188 5 196 9 168 10 164 14 148 0 0 0 0 864 864 11 $Q$18 FALSE -320
12 Doty Frank 19 128 13 152 0 16 140 18 132 0 14 148 0 12 156 856
13 Meineke Noah Campmor/Team Bulldog 12 156 7 180 10 164 8 172 0 DNF 60 0 0 DNF 60 792 792 9 $O$20 FALSE 1484
14 Licata Keith Campmor/Team Bulldog 7 180 23 120 0 9 168 16 140 10 164 0 0 0 772 772 5 $K$21 FALSE -392
15 Walter Patrick 0 0 2 228 3 216 1 240 DNF 60 0 0 0 744 744 1 $G$22 TRUE -348
16 Clark Jason 0 0 0 0 0 8 172 7 180 3 216 8 172 740 740 1 $G$23 TRUE -396
17 Maher Mike 17 136 20 124 24 120 18 132 0 DNF 60 12 156 0 0 728 728 9 $O$24 FALSE 1472
18 Shernce Brian Campmor/Team Bulldog 0 15 144 23 120 21 120 15 144 12 156 0 0 0 684 684 1 $G$25 TRUE -440
19 DiGirolamo Rob 14 148




etc...

 

[tranquilo]

:hmmm:

Not so cute when you're the host of the series.

 

[tranquilo]

The racer with no TM is the one who should be ashamed. Putting a larger point gap is a very very good idea cept that it tells racers that their TM prolly won't even matter so why do any.

Yes, there is shame, or at least there should be, in doing no TM. Peer pressure and the personal satisfaction of doing it have always been the motivators that work for me. However, giving someone the equivalent of a top 5 finish in Expert, which is incredibly hard to accomplish and takes a ton of training, is a disproportionate reward for doing TM, which should be obligatory. As for DNFs, I don't see how someone should earn 1/4 the points of a 1st place Expert finish just for showing up.

 

[Tonebuckets]

I do agree that someone needs to maintain the trails and paydirt is a way to get everyone riding those trails to maintain them. But lets take Michael Rave for example, I personally know that he put in hours way beyond the ten required for pay dirt, working on the trails for BOTH Stewart races AND the dark horse 40. Yet he lost 1st place due to paydirt. At the end of the day a win should be a win. I think that if the paydirt 5th place finish replaced one of the races you competed in instead off adding a whole additional race to the points would make more sense.

Oh by the way Ryan, did you get my Diet Pepsi at Blue?

Paul

I agree. Michael beat me outright and he did his TM so he deserves first place, hands down. I also agree that maybe the paydirt should replace a bad race instead of being added on top of.

And to maybe further expand on my idea of one free entry fee, make it you're only eligible if you compete in at least the required five races and you do TM. That might get more people actually doing the required five, which in turn makes the promoters more money. Just some more thoughts. Again, if I'm wrong I'm wrong. I'm just saying that the current setup doesn't SEEM like the best way. And as for arguments that it is, I'd be somewhat suspect. As it was said earlier, this is the one of the few successful years for TM. After 11 years even. And I honestly think that's the case because mtb'ing in general is coming back. The only scenario that makes it fair it seems is if everyone did TM. Maybe everyone should, but is that realistic? Those that can't, or flat out don't, are not just based straight out on racing.

But whatever, can we all just get along?