Do You Have The Power!?

Delish

Delish

Well-Known Member
Team MTBNJ Halter's
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About a year ago I started using a training with a power meter and changed my life. Well...not really. But I did find it to be a really useful tool for getting faster, especially for getting the most out of the least amount of saddle time. I'm sold on it...just like He Man.

I understand that not everybody wants (and I would argue none of us needs) a powermeter and that's fine. However, it finally looks like affordable powermeters are coming to the masses and I think that's a good thing. There are a number of new products coming to market in the coming days/months that look interesting and will challenge the incumbents SRM, Quarq and Powertap.

I've been happy with the reliability of my Powertap but as a self proclaimed wheel whore I don't love being tied to a boat anchor for races or spirited group rides. Being able to use one PM for Road/CX/MTB seems like the holy grail. As more companies enter the market products will not only get better but prices will come down too.

Who's happy with their current PM, who's looking for a new dance partner and who's looking to get in the game?

Here are a few of the interesting new things coming soon:

* Stages caused a stir this week on the interwebs after their announcement they they will begin shipping their relatively low cost 20 gram Left-Crankarm-Only powermeter, which was subsequently panned by the most influential bike/tri gear reviewer geek on the web. Starting at $700 its pretty affordable and easily swapped between all kinds of bikes (assuming you have the same brand and length cranks), but some question the validity of left leg only data and possibly the precision and/or accuracy of the system.

* Garmin Vector - Will this much hyped but oft-delayed product ever actually come to market? At $1500 and only for Look Keo pedals this one looks like a non-starter.

*Brim Brothers - Shoe based powermeter initially only for Speedplay Zero pedals. Strain gauges mount on the cleat and you attach some plastic fobs to your shoes non unlike tassels on penny loafers. Upside of these is that you might be able to measure power output if, say, you are a tap dancer by day. Price $TBD. Launch date? I give it 50/50 odds vis-a-vis Garmin Vector.

*Quarq RIKEN & ELSA: Just some evolutionary changes to the current Saturn product. ELSA (out now) adds power balance (left vs. right leg) and both will now allow for changing chainrings without recalibration. List price for the base RIKEN model (shipping in late Feb) brings the MSRP down a little (now starting at around $1600 cranks included)

...And a few that have been out for a little while...

*Polar/Look Keo - Polar - a.k.a the Commodore Amiga computer of cycling. Once upon a time Polar made the raddest HRMs in the biz but now they just look like a dinosaur. At least this one is actually on the market now. So how much? $2500. Really? Does it come with around-the-clock services of a Finnish soigner for that much? Nope. But it will work with my Garmin, right? No, it only works with Polar head units. Hm. But I get the head unit with it, right? No, you have to buy that separately. Awesome.

*Power2Max: Also-ran crank based power from Germany? Terrible name (not to be confused with MAX POWER, the man whose name you'd love to touch) but has decent reviews. At ~$1000 without cranks it's half to a third the price of its German compatriot SRM. This has been out for a while but hasn't gained broad appeal in the USA relative to Quarq.

Of course you could always build your own:
http://keithhack.blogspot.ca/2013/01/v3power-meterthe-complete-how-to.html
 
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I'd like power. After using my HR to guage workouts I do see the limitations and believe measuring power out put would be more consistent and precise.

It would be nice if they could make it more affordable...I'm thinking around$500. Until then I just watch and wait for Vreeland to sell me his for a good price when he upgrades.
 
I'd definitely be interested at the $500 price point as well. I'm by no means fast enough to warrant it, but I'd be curious to see how much of a change/improvement takes place over the course of a given year and also to help guide training and pacing to a certain degree.
 
Since I really only use my road bike for training and I really have no interest in what it weighs, I prefer the powertap. For a few other reasons also.

Its cheap and reliable. I bought mine 3 years ago used on ebay laced to a mavic open pro for $450. Since then I have put about 7000 miles on it and its still working fine. Had to change the battery twice in this amount of time.

The precision of my powertap has been very good. Meaning I get consistent results.

if not for the price, I would probably get quarc though.

I would recommend a power tap like I have (pro+ model laced to mavic open pro) as a good way to get started for cheap. But price aside, I would prefer the quarc just so I could more easily swap wheels.
 
I do have power, as most anyone reading this thread will know. I have 3 PMs.

1. Is the original which is now laced to a general-use rim that will be strong enough in their for cross. This is a PowerTap something or other. I do agree it's a bit heavy but for road racing I don't think it makes any difference.

2. Is the Quarq, which started on the road bike then moved to the cross bike. I like this, as it is more of an in-stream thing and is lighter and of course more sexy. It's more expensive and needs to be calibrated when you change rings. The reading does seem to be off maybe 1 in 20 times. But overall I was very happy with this.

3. Is another PowerTap I put on the MTB, which really ended up being more or less useless. I think this ended up being so heavy I never wanted to ride with it, and of course I would never want to race on this. So I really only used it when I took the old MTB on the road last winter. I don't have it on the new race bike, and in fact don't even have it with me now, as Fred currently is borrowing it.

At this point, I went pretty hard core with power and have cooled down in the past year. I still like the data and when I get serious later in the spring I'm sure I'll line everything up to get the most out of it. But I became a slave to it at points in the past and while it was a good thing in some ways, I'm good with letting some of the season go without any power data at all. At this point, my HRM doesn't even work, so all I have is speed & time & distance when I ride.

Going forward, if I were to buy more, I would likely look for the Quarq without calibration as my next purchase. Having said that, I don't see myself buying another PM any time soon.
 
I too have three power meters: two Quarqs and a Powertap. I really like the newer Quarq because I can switch chainrings without having to recalibrate the unit, and I can switch wheels on my bike as needed -- training, racing, crap weather, etc.

I was fully happy with the PowerTap, but wanted to try the Quarq so I knew differences between products better.

Shameless plug: although I do like the Powertap, I plan on selling it (it's an SL+ on Open Pro, complete Wheelset.) So you'll see a posting soon....
 
this is in the price range. strain gauge in the crank arm.

http://www.stagescycling.com/

ant+ and bt4 (btle)

what is the one that estimated power using a pressure gauge (pitot tube), accelerometers, and inclination?
 
Interesting topic...

I have a powertap comp (wired), 32 spoke hub laced to a DTSwiss rr465 rim (it's a clincher) and although overall I like being able to use power for training and measuring improvement, I have had my share of issues with it.

The first hub/cervo (the wired bike computer) had a number of issues, the primary one being that the batteries ran out at around 10 hrs of riding. After several computer exchanges and harness exchanges, Saris eventually had me send back everything (this was after about 6 months total). They sent back what I was told was a new computer, harness and hub internals. I was without power for a couple of weeks.

This new set of equipment appeared to be in pretty good working order, over the winter (2011-12) and into the spring I saw good improvements in fitness (I'm basing this in part off of rise in FTP). The data seemed consistent, and I zeroed out the torque regularly. Near the end of this past summer I went out on a ride (in the rain, not an uncommon thing), and when I got home I hung the bike for a couple weeks, went on vacation, and came home to find the hub no longer transmitted at all. When I called Saris they told me I likely got water in the hub and that I could send it back since I was still within a year of the last replacement. I was also told that this would be the last time I could get the wired hub serviced, as I was supposedly getting the last set of internals they had for wired hubs (and they had retired the model). I was told the next time something happened I would have to pay $350 to have the hub converted to a wireless model. This exchange took a couple weeks.

Interestingly, the new hub has consistently shown power 15-20% less than what my second hub did. When I check the torque settings they look OK. Hard to say if something is actually wrong with the new hub, or if my second hub was reading high. As an aside, I haven't gotten around to conducting a static hang test. I guess once I accepted the lower numbers, I don't really care as much about the accuracy, as long as over a long period of time I can trust the precision, so I can track progress.

So all told my experience is mixed with the wired powertap. As mentioned by Delish, being limited to the one wheelset is unattractive, particularly for cross. But I do use the wheel for training on both my road and cross bike. This requires the additional step of either buying another wiring harness ($60) or swapping the harness back and forth between bikes, and swapping tires from road, cx and trainer workouts.

I am very interested in purchasing a crank based power meter at some point in the future, but I see them as somewhat cost prohibitive right now. I had high hopes for the Stages power meter, but was going to wait for them to refine the bugs a bit.

Based on my experience with the wired powertap I would be hesitant to buy another product from them, but I would be very interested to hear more about the reliability others have experienced with newer powertap models.

I seem to have rambled on a little longer than I intended...
 
Norm said:
Is that the iBike?
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ty.

basically back into power by taking weight/relative velocity(wind corrected)/drag/change of elevation

i'd rather work with crayons at this point.
 
i have a powertap pro+ wireless on my roadbike. or "had" is a better way of saying it. the bearings failed this past summer after about 1.5yrs of service. seems like a simple thing to just replace some bearings, but saris claims that trying to tap out the old bearings and replace them could damage the strain gauge in the hub, making the unit worthless. kicker is they want 350bucks to "rebuild" the hub or they will give me a "discount" on one of their new G3 hubs. f that. replacement is now a work in progess, we'll see how it goes. and, by the way, the freehub is a cheap POS too.

i've got a saris spin bike that i like that's had its issues, but the saris customer service has been pretty good on that - not sure why it sucks so bad on these powertaps. i would not go this route again, i guess the only reason i did was to save a few $$$. would love for this Stages thing to really work, could be a reasonable option.

if you are serious about training, i think a pm is invaluable - once you figure out what you are really capable of from a power standpoint, it really forces you to push yourself to go harder. granted i'm not fast, but i'm not as slow as i used to be. and for very long days in the saddle, including endurance mtb races, its a great tool to keep your effort under control early in the day so you can have some strength left towards the end of the day. and its fun.
 
I just recently bought the CycleOps Powertap G3 built into their alloy wheels. So far so good, the numbers still don't mean too much for me after three solid weeks of training. I am still mainly going by my HR though. No problems with the PM or wheels so far, but as Eric O said, the big drawback is being married to these wheels.
 
SpartaBard said:
I just recently bought the CycleOps Powertap G3 built into their alloy wheels. So far so good, the numbers still don't mean too much for me after three solid weeks of training. I am still mainly going by my HR though. No problems with the PM or wheels so far, but as Eric O said, the big drawback is being married to these wheels.
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Hey Brad, here's my unsolicited thoughs on your post: the drawback isn't as much as you'd think. First, unless you're doing time trials, having a PM while racing doesn't mean that much since you need to do what you can do to stay with the pack/attack, unless you want to see your max numbers or analyze where you went bad in a race. (I've raced on my PT wheels too.)
Second, I suggest investing in Hunter Allen's book "Training and Racing With a Power Meter." It has really good information about testing (including an interesting concept of fatigue testing,) power zones, training, how to analyze the data, and has a bunch of workouts in the back.
Third, I know you race CX, so you can put a set of Mud 2s on them and use the wheels to train for CX too.
 
joemundi said:
Hey Brad, here's my unsolicited thoughs on your post: the drawback isn't as much as you'd think. First, unless you're doing time trials, having a PM while racing doesn't mean that much since you need to do what you can do to stay with the pack/attack, unless you want to see your max numbers or analyze where you went bad in a race. (I've raced on my PT wheels too.)
Second, I suggest investing in Hunter Allen's book "Training and Racing With a Power Meter." It has really good information about testing (including an interesting concept of fatigue testing,) power zones, training, how to analyze the data, and has a bunch of workouts in the back.
Third, I know you race CX, so you can put a set of Mud 2s on them and use the wheels to train for CX too.
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I just started working with Ben Tufford (cognition coaching) and we have already gone through one FTP test to get some preliminary numbers to work with. I guess what I really mean; it is just a matter of getting acquainted with the power numbers and getting a feel for them.

I bought a pair of challenge griffo "open" tubulars that I can put on the wheels for 'cross... It would be a bit of a pain to go back and forth though.
 
mike5756 said:
i have a powertap pro+ wireless on my roadbike. or "had" is a better way of saying it. the bearings failed this past summer after about 1.5yrs of service. seems like a simple thing to just replace some bearings, but saris claims that trying to tap out the old bearings and replace them could damage the strain gauge in the hub, making the unit worthless. kicker is they want 350bucks to "rebuild" the hub or they will give me a "discount" on one of their new G3 hubs. f that. replacement is now a work in progess, we'll see how it goes. and, by the way, the freehub is a cheap POS too.

i've got a saris spin bike that i like that's had its issues, but the saris customer service has been pretty good on that - not sure why it sucks so bad on these powertaps. i would not go this route again, i guess the only reason i did was to save a few $$$. would love for this Stages thing to really work, could be a reasonable option.

if you are serious about training, i think a pm is invaluable - once you figure out what you are really capable of from a power standpoint, it really forces you to push yourself to go harder. granted i'm not fast, but i'm not as slow as i used to be. and for very long days in the saddle, including endurance mtb races, its a great tool to keep your effort under control early in the day so you can have some strength left towards the end of the day. and its fun.
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same thing happened with my SL+. I've only had it for 2 years and i now i have to send it in to get serviced. ill get it serviced but will be looking into a crank-based system in the future
 
I've heard the argument that all you need is precision, not accuary and precision with a PM but I don't necessarily buy it. Sure it's fine if you only ever use one PM but as Smith points out, what happens when it breaks or you change to a different model? Now all the numbers you use to base your workouts are off and there's no way to benchmark from season to season.

PT bearings are known to go bad quickly so lots of people do the DIY replacement without damaging the hub or disrupting the time-space continuum as CycleOps would lead you to believe.

iBike seems like an interesting thought exercise--like a management consulting interview question (i.e. tell me all the ways to measure the height of a tree without a measuring tape). That or a Rube Goldberg contraption. Only slightly less cludgey than the Polar unit that measured power as a function of chain droop therefore tension therefore power.
 
Similar to E; limited time to train, some disposable income, so 3 Quarq power meters in my house after converting from a PT. The new Red for my road bike, the original Sram Cinqo for my CX and the Sram Quattro for the MTB. Very helpful, especially analyzing over time, etc. I'm fairly quantitative to start with, so this is useful for me and I've adjusted pacing and effort while racing based on post-race file review in CX, road and MTB (used to race the PT in CX, which was possibly the most useful thing I ever did).

Definitely a geek toy, and if you're self-coached, I would argue the best thing you could do for improving your racing fitness. That said, you need to have some patience and time to learn how to interpret info from the book TARWAPM* and the data you see in WKO+ or TrainingPeaks. I'm self-coached, so this is the way for me, but definitely not for everyone.


*Training and Racing with a Power Meter
 
Delish said:
I've heard the argument that all you need is precision, not accuary and precision with a PM but I don't necessarily buy it. Sure it's fine if you only ever use one PM but as Smith points out, what happens when it breaks or you change to a different model? Now all the numbers you use to base your workouts are off and there's no way to benchmark from season to season.
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Given most common PM's have a +/- 1.5-2% variability, I would argue the above, while technically true, is not material (call it 6w @ 300w threshold). Your training zones, especially Sweet Spot and north (threshold, VO2, AC) have 15-20% ranges, so I think the above is a bit of a red herring.

Consistency overrides all! (i.e. seeing the forest for the trees)
 
This thread is reminding me that I need to replace the dead batteries in my PT.

After many years of heart rate-based training, I used power fairly seriously in preparation for the 2011 season and had some of my best results ever.

I ended up doing a JRA program in 2012 and my results were clearly compromised, so one of my explicit goals for 2013 is to get back to power-based training.
 
Not sure if it was mentioned but another alternative is the PowerCal. It may not be as accurate especially for interval training, but i find the average power is in the ballpark. Useful if you really just want to track daily training stress. Plus it's not that expensive and can be used for other activities.
 
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