Conditions?

[ChrisG]

I'm just saying what I know. The Monmouth County Park System is probably the most difficult to deal with from the maintenance stand point. And remember that the trail master/crew are volunteers & they have nothing to be embarrassed about. Their hands are tied. It's the Park System & the people who ride the trails, when they probably shouldn't, that should be embarrassed. Call the park & tell them how you fell & see what kind of response you get. Maybe it might light a fire under 1 of these bureaucratic types over there.

As usual, Kirt is right on point here. It's not neglect on the part of volunteers, it's the park system itself making it so difficult for meaningful work to get done in Hartshorne and Huber. In order to do maintenance in a Monmouth County Park, volunteers need to attend a training session, which is separate from the actual work day. It's hard to imagine that the wonderful turnouts at Allaire and 6 Mile would be the same if such a requirement were implemented for state park trail work. People clearly want to work on the trails, it's a matter of whether or not the bureaucracy allows them to.

 

[don]

I'm just saying what I know. The Monmouth County Park System is probably the most difficult to deal with from the maintenance stand point. And remember that the trail master/crew are volunteers & they have nothing to be embarrassed about. Their hands are tied. It's the Park System & the people who ride the trails, when they probably shouldn't, that should be embarrassed. Call the park & tell them how you fell & see what kind of response you get. Maybe it might light a fire under 1 of these bureaucratic types over there.

I'm sorry if I sounded harsh - I just was pretty fired up after seeing some of the conditions. My hat to anyone that picks up a shovel and gets work done without getting paid. You're right I mis-directed my comment - the people that make the cuts looking for an easier line/riding when they shouldn't and the Park System are the ones that should think of what's going on with their actions.

If they are volunteers, how could I sign up to help? I've gotten emails from Karen Livingston for various Monmouth County park jobs but have not seen any for trail work @ Hartshorne. She seems like a really nice person from the one time I met her @ the trail work training session at the begining of the year. Would it be worth asking her if there are volunteer positions @ Hart? I've got mornings during the week I could certainly give and I have a LOT of hours with a shovel and landscape tools.

 

[don]

Kirt...They are not a smart idea if they are not going to be kept up...The bars in Hartshorne are DANGEROUS...I guess I have to see one that has been maintained properly

I think an issue with Hartshorne (and I could be wrong) is with the sandstone type of soil mixed with rock and roots that anything with a certain pitch cannot be sustained there - water bars just seem to make it worse.

Step climbs and decents are fun but those are the areas of the park that are snotted beyond belief. The rolling zones seem to work nice (and man are they fun to pump and flow thru). I am sure many know exactly what could work there and make that place fun and sustainable for a ton of traffic. It's just sad that it's not being realized.

 

[GratefulRider]

I ride Hartshorne pretty often and have been riding the park for a number of years. I agree that the trails have seen better days. I've personally never done any trail work, but I would be more than happy to participate. Can we all just agree to meet there one morning with some shovels, gloves and a few saws? With regards to the re routing, we can fix that in a matter of minutes. The erosion is pretty severe but We could probably come up with something. hartshorne is more resilient then this forum would suggest. I think we could correct most of the major problem areas with a few hours of work. This will ensure we still have a great place to ride south of the Driscoll bridge! I am typically available Sunday's. Chris G, can you use your team status to help organize an informal gathering?

 

[Frank]

As many have indicated, Monmouth Cty. is a difficult one. First they require training for TM for insurance purposes. Second, they have to answer to the master trail planner. He is the one that decides what gets done there. Karen Livingstone should not have to bear the brunt of everyones frustrations. But I do agree we could call and give feedback.

Going into the park and doing TM on your own is NOT advised. Renegade work, eventhough the situation seems to call for it, is never well recieved by the park personell and does little to help the cause.

Brian and Mike have both been to IMBA trail building classes and have both tried to enlighten them to the new trail sciences available. But unfortunately, it has fallen on deaf ears. It will be up to the local users to generate a little concern and that might influence them to do some more work out there.

Don you didn't sound harsh , just concerned.

 

[The Kalmyk]

Frank, whats your take on using waterbars on this kind of terrain?

 

[Frank]

I'm not going to sit here and trash the trail builders at Hartshorne. But I will say that if they employed grade reversals, rolling grade dips, and nicks they could eliminate many of the water bars. I have found that water bars tend to widen the tread due to folks trying to avoid the bar, not to mention they don't do much to shed water unless they are installed perfectly. If only they would embrace the IMBA science things could be better, but that will take time. Remember, ten years ago everyone used water bars.:hmmm:

 

[Brian Snyder]

I have been beating my head against the wall for a few years now over Hartshorn and Huber. I have been begging to get something done in the parks and it is a case of tell me one thing, then doing something else. The park head ranger is on our side, Karen is a PR person with no real say about anything, and the park ecologist knows "all there is to know about TM." He has his quota of miles, and that is that. He blames it on the rangers, and overtime, and the rangers blame him. If this isn't bad enough they decided that the bulk of TM sessions this year were to be dedicated to Holmdel Park. I actuallly had to say "If we don't get a few sessions in at H&H I would resign, so they relented and put a few dates in, on Saturdays, which we ( the volunteers) have said, Sunday is better. Then when we get a chance to do some thing good, they say, " we cut some nice logs for water bars." I have given them the IMBA books, and dvd on trail building/maint.,twice. You can see how much that helped. The VIP program is all about protecting the park. They will not let anything be done unless it is through the VIP program, but when pushed they won't do what very obviously needs to be done, even when Mike F. and I have said we will do it. We are the people who teach the New Volunteer Training Sessions, and are rated as Master trail builders, and we will get done teaching a class (at Holmdel) and then they take us out to drop in water bars. You think you are frustrated? I can't even get them to post TM dates or info on the kiosks at the trail heads. I can't even get a reason why not.I have been a volunteer since 1991, and this is the worst it has been ever, and it almost seems to be by design. Call the park system and complain, show up for TM days. If any one has any ideas I am open to them, it just seems like since it is easier to do nothing, that is what is getting done.

 

[jdog]

I have been beating my head against the wall for a few years now over Hartshorn and Huber. I have been begging to get something done in the parks and it is a case of tell me one thing, then doing something else. The park head ranger is on our side, Karen is a PR person with no real say about anything, and the park ecologist knows "all there is to know about TM." He has his quota of miles, and that is that. He blames it on the rangers, and overtime, and the rangers blame him. If this isn't bad enough they decided that the bulk of TM sessions this year were to be dedicated to Holmdel Park. I actuallly had to say "If we don't get a few sessions in at H&H I would resign, so they relented and put a few dates in, on Saturdays, which we ( the volunteers) have said, Sunday is better. Then when we get a chance to do some thing good, they say, " we cut some nice logs for water bars." I have given them the IMBA books, and dvd on trail building/maint.,twice. You can see how much that helped. The VIP program is all about protecting the park. They will not let anything be done unless it is through the VIP program, but when pushed they won't do what very obviously needs to be done, even when Mike F. and I have said we will do it. We are the people who teach the New Volunteer Training Sessions, and are rated as Master trail builders, and we will get done teaching a class (at Holmdel) and then they take us out to drop in water bars. You think you are frustrated? I can't even get them to post TM dates or info on the kiosks at the trail heads. I can't even get a reason why not.I have been a volunteer since 1991, and this is the worst it has been ever, and it almost seems to be by design. Call the park system and complain, show up for TM days. If any one has any ideas I am open to them, it just seems like since it is easier to do nothing, that is what is getting done.

Waaaa.. Just kidding. It sucks.


A media assault might help. Seriously if an article shows up in the paper detailing the wall that you are up against you might see some change.

You might show how a park like 6 mile or CR embraces volunteerism while H&H shuns it.

That is a good human interest story.



Hartshore has SO much potential. I see it as the biggest waste in NJ mt biking at this point.

It bums me out since I know how good it was 10 years ago.


j

 

[don]

GratefulRider - The way things looked at Hartshorne this week with downed trees and user reroutes, I don't even think the people in charge would notice rouge trailwork being done for a few weeks if they would at all. And I know from experience, what just a few good trail builder can do - smarts combined with hard work can get a LOT done. But, I agree with Frank, that it is not the best idea, as fustrating as it can be.

Brian - Yikes! I can only imagine how fustrated you are knowing all the background. I was pretty upset just riding the place. I'll give the park a call this week and complain - just call Monmouth County Parks? I will also try to get over there on Sat morning. Like someone said Sat's AM are tough.

I did the training at Holmdel and the group we were with built waterbars. I think our work was overall pretty good, but it still was a waterbar and it took a lot of time just to put 2 of them. I honestly, think the flow of that trail section became worse too for all users. In contrast, at one of the Allaire Trail digs last March, I remember Mike and Frank showing us the spoon method. Months later all the sections we worked on were looking and riding great. And I know that trail gets a decent amount of traffic.

Frank - I'll spread the word to local trail users and bike shops to get some complaining on a local level going on. Hopefully the squeky wheel will get fixed.

 

[don]

Waaaa.. Just kidding. It sucks.


A media assault might help. Seriously if an article shows up in the paper detailing the wall that you are up against you might see some change.

You might show how a park like 6 mile or CR embraces volunteerism while H&H shuns it.

That is a good human interest story.



Hartshore has SO much potential. I see it as the biggest waste in NJ mt biking at this point.

It bums me out since I know how good it was 10 years ago.


j

J - Interesting thought on getting an article out. There are a few papers in the area that might look to do it. I'll do a little research on it.

And so so true about the lost potential at Hart & Huber. Biggest waste is right.

You have one of the highest elevations on the eastern seacoast. There are a few view spots in that park of the Navesink River, Sandy Hook, SeaBright/Ocean and NYC that are world class.

A place that has really nice conditions almost year 'round. Not to mention the actual terrain - there are some climbs that can kick your butt there (no not long north Jersey style but respectable). With modern trail building techniques, some reroutes and dialing in that place could be amazing. And built correctly could handle plenty of traffic.

One more thing - get the local kids into riding/hiking/trails. As a parent in nearby Rumson, there are a TON of athletic kids in this area. Not to mention Middletown (you know how many kids from that place are going onto pro level sports?) They are also involved with the churches, boy/girl scouts, and town segments that can provide community service. (My nephew needs community service hours for the church and can't get them next week at Hartshorne due to the restrictions. He'll be coming to the next Allaire TM instead). Get a fun small trail or open zone with some rollers and skinnies. Make it fun for the kids to come and ride. I think a few of them wouldn't mind a change from the football, baseball, lax, & soccer duties.

 

[Zaskar]

just checking...

I ride here about once a year and was looking at this Sunday 10/26...Are the trails that dire that I should stay north??

 

[ChrisG]

just checking...

I ride here about once a year and was looking at this Sunday 10/26...Are the trails that dire that I should stay north??

No, though today/tonight's rain could make things not-so-good for riding there tomorrow if we get dumped on.

Place is extremely dry, so it will still be fine if we don't get too much rain.

 

[Kmoodymz3]

A while back I was surfing Monmouth County Parks website and noticed that Huber is no longer listed as a MTB park. Then noticed someone removed the little bike on the park signs showing who yields to whom.

I met a Monmouth County Parks person last weekend who was doing some promotion for the parks and asked her about it. Seems that MTBing is not banned from Huber but it is not being encouraged. Apparently horse back riders have been pushing to get bikes off the trails. I asked what I could do to keep bikes there and didn't get an answer. :hmmm: I then pointed out that MTB trails are limited there. less than 1/2 the park, and there is plenty of room for both horses and bikes and did get agreement on that.

Please anyone riding Huber, make sure you ride responsibly. I will be looking into who I can contact to make sure Huber is open for MTB. It is a small park but fun to ride, all single track, lots of wildlife, and pretty. It is a great place for a nice hour in the woods!

 

[MEAN IRISH GUY]

yeah i hadnt been there in a while, than like 2 months ago i stopped by there for a spin and when i got on the trail i normally make a right and head in the way and there was a FENCE there. i was WTF?!?! than i noticed the little MTB guy was off the tield sign and just to save any hassle i just packed up and left. i wasnt really a fan of there anyhow. TOO much sand. i ride allaire that has tons of sand and i dont think it even compares. i could be wrong though as i have never ridden on some of the park.

 

[Kmoodymz3]

Yeah that fence is strange. They cleared a big area, Took down dozens of nice trees and put in a small shed, made a total mud hole of the whole area and then had to re-route trails around. I have no idea why.

You can get around the fence and biking still allowed. I'm happy to give a tour someday.

 

[MEAN IRISH GUY]

yeah the trails over to the right past the fence are pretty fun, just nothing to write home about. i only live like 5 minutes from there but i think if im going to go ride over that way ima just go to hartshorne.

 

[ChrisG]

The fence was put up after a large tree fell and blocked the trail. Apparently, it was easier to fence off the trail than to remove the tree.

In any case, I too am a big fan of this park, and hope that we never lose access to these trails, which I find very satisfying to ride, particularly when you link a lap here with some time at Hartshorne.

 

[MEAN IRISH GUY]

yeah i remember one time i made a right and went onto the trail and there was a HUGE pile of trees and bushes blocking the trail that i had to carry myself and the bike over. soon later there was the fence.

 

[jdog]

As someone who does a god amount of TM I find it frustrating to see these parks falling into disrepair. It is very foolish for the park to turn away the free help that we as volunteers are willing to give.

If and when this policy changes I will be there to lend a hand.