Well if people riding ATVs potentially screws up trail access for you - which it does - then by default that's saying you're against it.
ATV's are tearing it up!!!
- Thread starter jdog
- Start date
Well if people riding ATVs potentially screws up trail access for you - which it does - then by default that's saying you're against it.
I'm going to leave it to the ATV and Moto groups to lobby for their own access and to build and maintain their own trails built specifically for the way they use them. Maybe they should take a page out of the mountain bike advocacy playbook, but I'm not going to do the work for them.
In the meantime, when I see them riding mountain bike trails, which are inappropriate for them to ride and by which we (mountain bikers) are judged in terms of erosion control and environmental damage, I'll continue to report them.
On the trail, I'll continue to relate to them as fellow riders in a non-confrontational way, "warning" them about how law enforcement in the area has recently been ticketing atv/moto riders and impounding bikes...
In the meantime, when I see them riding mountain bike trails, which are inappropriate for them to ride and by which we (mountain bikers) are judged in terms of erosion control and environmental damage, I'll continue to report them.
On the trail, I'll continue to relate to them as fellow riders in a non-confrontational way, "warning" them about how law enforcement in the area has recently been ticketing atv/moto riders and impounding bikes...
Pick your response:
1. Redirecting to the point I was hoping to make: I think that access for everyone should be the goal. In order to achieve this goal, especially when many are vying for use of the same terra firma, there must be compromise, and this compromise must be one made with a sense of mutual respect for each other, and the rights that each of us has to pursue our own form of happiness. This is all well and good, except that those activities that bring one joy may bring another consternation, and this is what makes proximity to others so challenging. New Jersey is the most densely populated state in the union, enjoy the challenge.
The ATV guys should do what the good Mt. Bikers do.. .learn about trail maintenance and participate in it. Be part of the trail community... Mt. Bikers (like me) should do the same. That's all I wanted to say.
2. Addressing your argument against the position I hope I never have to take: Actually, since all I've ever done is read about 6 mile, it has no impact on me at all in terms of access. But, what if I one day wanted to go there and I couldn't, you argue... my retort, couldn't that potentially happen anywhere...If my position were (It isn't), I don't care if it doesn't effect me, then I guess until it effected me I wouldn't care. But, I hope I don't become that way.
1. Your point #1 was well thought out and a sensible answer. As you note we live in the most densely populated state, and opinions are just as densely mashed up in the same realm. Considering that something like 90% of that population density lives in the swath of real estate between NYC and Philly, a swath that includes 6 Mile, at the end of the yellow brick road of reasonable discussion the likelihood of ATVs being allowed into that park is about as likely as me replacing Tom Brady as starting QB this weekend. So while again I will say it's a solid, measured reply it's almost surely not going to happen.
2. A point of semantics that I have to make, it does actually impact you in terms of access. If you choose not to exercise your rights of access is a different story. In terms of practically applying your right of access, I agree, it matters little to you other than, perhaps, as discussion on a message board. My comment to your next-to-last sentence would be that second hand smoke doesn't effect the spouse of a smoker, until they both drop dead of lung cancer.
2. A point of semantics that I have to make, it does actually impact you in terms of access. If you choose not to exercise your rights of access is a different story. In terms of practically applying your right of access, I agree, it matters little to you other than, perhaps, as discussion on a message board. My comment to your next-to-last sentence would be that second hand smoke doesn't effect the spouse of a smoker, until they both drop dead of lung cancer.
FFT
Gay & Stuffy
ATV's have no right to ride trails that are not intended for motorized use. As devils advocate I say "I want to sit on the beach naked and drink martinis" Why cant I? Because it is illegall, although it makes me happy, it's not legal.
You might be that way already.
It can be denied in many soil conditions and types.
walter
Fourth Party
Just rolling off of what FFT is saying, let's keep in mind that it is illegal in NJ to ride dirt bikes and quads on public land. Maybe it is different in NH, but here in The Peoples Republic of New Jermany, unless you are in a designated riding area like Chatsworth, or at an organized facility like Englishtown Raceway, or on your own private land dirt bikes and the like are a no no. So its not that we are not properly sharing the land with them, as it stands right now, they are not entitled to even be on it.
FFT
Gay & Stuffy
Walt,
For the record there are many places you can ride off-road legally in NJ.........in state parks..........LEGALLY.........BUT, you must follow the rules, licenses, inspection, flame retardant exhaust, ect......
It's not as Nazi Jerman as one wood think, you just cant rip threw the little crap holes like Allaire where the trail use is limited to foot, hoof, & bicycle.
Most of the state land in the pines and WMA's are open to motorized use, just gotta follow the rules.
FFT
Gay & Stuffy
FFT, thanks for the clarification, I stand corrected. It has been sometime since I have been off-road.
You got it, a few more hours here in new jermany and I'm off to Ray's. I'll give ya'll the full report when I return!!
Frank
Sasquatch
HEY !!!!:mad2: :hmmm:
DD-
New Member
Motorozed Vehicles allowed in NJ WMAs??
I'm not sure this is exactly accurate, I went to the NJDEP Division of Fish & Wildlife website, and found the following information regarding the WMA's in the state -
"Managed by the Division's Bureau of Land Management for fish and wildlife habitat, a variety of wildlife-associated recreation is available on most areas. While hunting and fishing are probably the two activities most associated with the Division, WMAs are also prime locations for birding, wildlife viewing and photography, cross country skiing, hiking and mountain biking."
I don't see anything about being open to motorized use - I may be wrong, but I couldn't find anything stating that they could be there. I also don't really think that ATV's are recreation associated with wildlife :hmmm: If anyone knows where in fact the rules for ATVs in the WMAs are listed, I'd be interested in knowing what rules they have to follow.
I was in Mahlon's WMA last January mountain biking with Joe. We were almost run over by 2 AVTer's who proceeded to try and spray us with gravel. Now, I'm sure they were having a grand time, but we didn't really find their antics very amusing.
When we got back to the parking lot, the park police were looking for them and asked if we'd seen them, turns out that they were caught later that afternoon by the police, and had they shiny new toys confasgated. Clearly the Mahlon park police didn't think that ATVs were legal in their park...
Also, Allaire is a really fun place to ride, not a "little crap holes", Frank and company have put in alot of time and effort at that place, and it shows. It has some fantastic flow, and nice twisty singletrack.
DD
I'm not sure this is exactly accurate, I went to the NJDEP Division of Fish & Wildlife website, and found the following information regarding the WMA's in the state -
"Managed by the Division's Bureau of Land Management for fish and wildlife habitat, a variety of wildlife-associated recreation is available on most areas. While hunting and fishing are probably the two activities most associated with the Division, WMAs are also prime locations for birding, wildlife viewing and photography, cross country skiing, hiking and mountain biking."
I don't see anything about being open to motorized use - I may be wrong, but I couldn't find anything stating that they could be there. I also don't really think that ATV's are recreation associated with wildlife :hmmm: If anyone knows where in fact the rules for ATVs in the WMAs are listed, I'd be interested in knowing what rules they have to follow.
I was in Mahlon's WMA last January mountain biking with Joe. We were almost run over by 2 AVTer's who proceeded to try and spray us with gravel. Now, I'm sure they were having a grand time, but we didn't really find their antics very amusing.
When we got back to the parking lot, the park police were looking for them and asked if we'd seen them, turns out that they were caught later that afternoon by the police, and had they shiny new toys confasgated. Clearly the Mahlon park police didn't think that ATVs were legal in their park...
Also, Allaire is a really fun place to ride, not a "little crap holes", Frank and company have put in alot of time and effort at that place, and it shows. It has some fantastic flow, and nice twisty singletrack.
DD
Frank
Sasquatch
Thanks for the props DD. Just an FYI, Mr Tyres is a friend of mine and did that to get a rise out of someone....and it worked!! He is a long time fan of Allaire......he just won't admit it.
The fact remains that we should be mindful of ORV traffic and report it to the authorities. Just like one of the original statements said, Jdog and crew have done great work there and the park has noticed, not to mention anyone who has ridden there, and we all owe you guys big time for your hard work. Keep it up !! And if someone bogarts the trails again :getsome:
He is a long time fan of Allaire......he just won't admit it.The fact remains that we should be mindful of ORV traffic and report it to the authorities. Just like one of the original statements said, Jdog and crew have done great work there and the park has noticed, not to mention anyone who has ridden there, and we all owe you guys big time for your hard work. Keep it up !! And if someone bogarts the trails again :getsome:
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walter
Fourth Party
I have been thinking about this as well. My main point being that if its legal to ride as long as you have proper documentation, then whats all the fuss about Chatsworth closing down. If the folks that run that area lost the lease or what ever, than as long as I am registered and insured, whats the big deal? There wont be any organization, but the property is still fair game???
Where I live, I was on a motorized bike probably soon after the training wheels came off my bicycle, and I remember always running from the cops. Never a good exp. with them. I remember riding in spots down in Lakewood, Forked River, Waretown, etc. that are now covered by homes and those cops chasing us also. I think of the hunters that use the camo covered atv's and their high powered weapons to hunt, I guess they get a pass?
There is thousands and thousands of acres in the Pineys, why does everyone go to Chatsworth, because its legal. Some of the Pines borders Ft Dix and McGuire, so if Im registered its OK? The guy driving his son and his sons 2 friends are going to park on a dead end street and unload and ride off into the woods as long as they are registered, doubt it. Is the guy at the local Honda dealer going to give you a map of the plces you can ride, hell no, he wants your money, just like the politicians do.
I know where I can ride and where I cant. Do I see quad and dirt bike tracks where I ride, yes. Should they be there, no. Is a cop in New Brunswick going to chase someone riding a quad down the street? Will a cop down in Lacey chase a kid on a quad? Answer to both, probably not. But both times the person on the quad is in the wrong.
Where I live, I was on a motorized bike probably soon after the training wheels came off my bicycle, and I remember always running from the cops. Never a good exp. with them. I remember riding in spots down in Lakewood, Forked River, Waretown, etc. that are now covered by homes and those cops chasing us also. I think of the hunters that use the camo covered atv's and their high powered weapons to hunt, I guess they get a pass?
There is thousands and thousands of acres in the Pineys, why does everyone go to Chatsworth, because its legal. Some of the Pines borders Ft Dix and McGuire, so if Im registered its OK? The guy driving his son and his sons 2 friends are going to park on a dead end street and unload and ride off into the woods as long as they are registered, doubt it. Is the guy at the local Honda dealer going to give you a map of the plces you can ride, hell no, he wants your money, just like the politicians do.
I know where I can ride and where I cant. Do I see quad and dirt bike tracks where I ride, yes. Should they be there, no. Is a cop in New Brunswick going to chase someone riding a quad down the street? Will a cop down in Lacey chase a kid on a quad? Answer to both, probably not. But both times the person on the quad is in the wrong.
My favorite ATV sighting..
I was in Philly for the Interbike east (early 90's??) and we were driving home. We were stopped at a red light when we suddenly saw what looked like Fat Albert on a three wheeler riding in traffic. Fat Albert had on ski goggles and no helmet but was doing like 60 MPH in traffic.
Not long after that we saw about 10 other guys from the Fat Albert gang on Dirtbikes and ATV's. They were in and out of traffic, running lights and jumping curbs.
Many of these guys were on really little bikes but some had adult sized bikes. They actually rode really well.
It seemed like the cops didn't care since they wold just cause mayhem in a pursuit. It was really funny in a way..
CEM was with me.. Maybe he remembers this differently.
I was in Philly for the Interbike east (early 90's??) and we were driving home. We were stopped at a red light when we suddenly saw what looked like Fat Albert on a three wheeler riding in traffic. Fat Albert had on ski goggles and no helmet but was doing like 60 MPH in traffic.
Not long after that we saw about 10 other guys from the Fat Albert gang on Dirtbikes and ATV's. They were in and out of traffic, running lights and jumping curbs.
Many of these guys were on really little bikes but some had adult sized bikes. They actually rode really well.
It seemed like the cops didn't care since they wold just cause mayhem in a pursuit. It was really funny in a way..
CEM was with me.. Maybe he remembers this differently.
Where is night mtb legal??