Do police hate deer?
ATV Illegal Use Reporting
- Thread starter Stratocaster
- Start date
Do police hate deer?
I rode in Allamuchy there on Monday and I noticed lots of ATV damage. A lot of the log overs were breeched (moved or knocked down), new double track where single track used to be, new ripped corners and new wide "go around" trails complete with busted saplings where the log piles were too steep on the main trail. I encourage you all to check it out in there. And I only did about 8 miles in there near the Waterloo side.
Someone said they stay off singletrack. Unfortunately that's not true -- RyderX just said they were on the Ditch Bypass trails constructed over the past few years (with park approval) -- all nice twisty single track (or used to be!). Well, soon it won't be single track, so I guess that statement will soon become true in sad way. I just hate to see the TM our JORBA group has done be destroyed.
A couple of years ago I witnessed an ATV just spinning his wheels up a short WET steep trail near Cranberry Lake. The fat dude couldn't get up the hill, so he just applied the gas and spun his wheels up the hill until they finally caught. Of course he left two evenly spaced 6 plus inch deep ruts in the ground, ripped up rocks but what the hell -- all in good fun, right? After they left, my buddy Scott and I fixed what we could while choking on the fumes left by the couch on wheels.
I was just out at Michaux State Forest in PA. They have a whole network of ATV trails specifically designed for ATV's. They are a lot different then the existing Allamuchy trails -- they had no log crossings, they have built up features (berms, corners, etc), armored sections and access roads. I didn't see any of the damage that I saw in Allamuchy this weekend. No broken trees, no ripped up trails, etc. Hell, those guys were even nice -- I wasn't sprayed once with rocks from the ATV's like I have been here in Jersey (you know, gun the gas when you pass someone so they get hit with rocks -- really nice and friendly). I only called the cops once on ATV's when two of them did that to DD- and me at Mahlon. That was the third time I experienced that and I got pissed. They caught the bastards, too (we weren't the only ones who they did that to that day).
The fact that ATV's don't have access to these parks is not our problem. We have access -- they don't -- its illegal to ride in the parks on an ATV. A lot of hard work has gone into mountain bike access and a lot of hard work is done to ensure mountain bike access. If the ATV's want access, petition the state to grant them access -- they missed a great opportunity in Jungle Habitat. The mountain bike community as a whole has really made a huge effort to reinvent itself from the 1990's cavalier "Mountain Dew" swilling crowd to more respectful trail users. I don't see the same effort or attitude from the ATV crowd -- not yet, anyway. They need a Jeff Mergler or a Bob Workman type guy to get things rolling. Until then, like they say in Poland -- Tough Sheetski.
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Stratocaster
Banned
Dirt Bikes
My dirtbikes used to come first. It's a great activity. MX, Enduro, Dualsport.... I miss it. I've made plenty of moto trails too, and had them messed up by quads. Go out and spend hours on singletrack building and see how you feel when it gets trashed. It won't be an arrogant reaction. Trail damage WILL happen if atv's go into prohibited area's. Damage is already happening. There are places to use atv's and the State Parks are not on that list. I don't see it as effen somebody over if they're in violation.
My dirtbikes used to come first. It's a great activity. MX, Enduro, Dualsport.... I miss it. I've made plenty of moto trails too, and had them messed up by quads. Go out and spend hours on singletrack building and see how you feel when it gets trashed. It won't be an arrogant reaction. Trail damage WILL happen if atv's go into prohibited area's. Damage is already happening. There are places to use atv's and the State Parks are not on that list. I don't see it as effen somebody over if they're in violation.
well its not really "tough sheetski" is it? Your trails are still being messed up, so it is your problem. You can call the cops all day long on ATV guys, 99% of the time (unless they are complete tools) they will get away with ease. While I have not ridden my MX bike in NJ in nearly 10 years (minus Englishtown, Atco, and wildwood beach) when I did, any attempt at police actually chasing us was laughable. I realize people have major problem with motorized vehicles in nice parks. I would never want to ride my MX bike at the tourne, or lewis morris. GOD how boring that would be!! For me, the empty, leveled lot across from fairy tale forrest would be my dream spot. Nice pit to turn laps in. They won't even allow that in this state. Taking a already leveled, clearcut area and allowing it to be used for ORV's. Its too bad.
So what the answer?
Do nothing??? Let them get bored and they will stop riding there? Do we (mountain bikers/hikers) stop doing TM?
Utah Joe - I agree with you on the hard to catch point of view. However, all you have to do is catch one and impound the ATV and mom/dad will be pissed (hopefully)! I also agree on the ORV park, how cool would that be. I would want more land for trail riding rather than mx stuff.
Jeff - I do not think dropping a dime on the ATV folks is out of line. When you have tried to talk to them, point out it is a SP, they are not allowed to ride there, and all you get is "to f'en bad" or other lip service (my recent favorite is "I live here!") what choice do you have?
Allamuchy Joe and Stratocaster - you know where I stand based on our discussion on this one.
My question to others that don’t ride in Allamuchy or say Ringwood, and think this is not a problem or that dropping a dime and reporting the illegal use is uncalled for how would you feel if an ATV all the sudden started riding on the single track in your park...lets say the new stuff in Mahlon??? Do you want to ride on that ATV trail then?
Do nothing??? Let them get bored and they will stop riding there? Do we (mountain bikers/hikers) stop doing TM?
Utah Joe - I agree with you on the hard to catch point of view. However, all you have to do is catch one and impound the ATV and mom/dad will be pissed (hopefully)! I also agree on the ORV park, how cool would that be. I would want more land for trail riding rather than mx stuff.
Jeff - I do not think dropping a dime on the ATV folks is out of line. When you have tried to talk to them, point out it is a SP, they are not allowed to ride there, and all you get is "to f'en bad" or other lip service (my recent favorite is "I live here!") what choice do you have?
Allamuchy Joe and Stratocaster - you know where I stand based on our discussion on this one.
My question to others that don’t ride in Allamuchy or say Ringwood, and think this is not a problem or that dropping a dime and reporting the illegal use is uncalled for how would you feel if an ATV all the sudden started riding on the single track in your park...lets say the new stuff in Mahlon??? Do you want to ride on that ATV trail then?
anrothar
entirely thrilled
most of the new stuff at mahlon isn't really ridable on a 4-wheeled contraption. as i've said before, i actually really enjoy riding quad and dirt bike trails. i think they're a blast. wanna keep quads off a singletrack? frequent enough chokes to make it boring for them to keep having to go around, but not too slow for mtbs to enjoy. frequent turns and rock gardens will keep most motorized vehicles out as well. the vast majority of the people riding dirt bikes and quads like to go fast. if the trail makes that impossible, they'll avoid it.
look at the beaver brook trail as it goes through the wmas adjacent to mahlon. in the 15 or so years that i've known of the trails existance, i've seen two sets of dirt bike tracks on it, and they were moto trials tires. they didn't roost at all. it's a tight, technical trail that just plain isn't any fun on a dirt bike. and it is surrounded by quad and db trails that see rather high use.
mahlon is one of the few parks where it's actually fairly easy to catch illegal motorized trail users. there are only three entrance points on the east/south side of the park.
look at the beaver brook trail as it goes through the wmas adjacent to mahlon. in the 15 or so years that i've known of the trails existance, i've seen two sets of dirt bike tracks on it, and they were moto trials tires. they didn't roost at all. it's a tight, technical trail that just plain isn't any fun on a dirt bike. and it is surrounded by quad and db trails that see rather high use.
mahlon is one of the few parks where it's actually fairly easy to catch illegal motorized trail users. there are only three entrance points on the east/south side of the park.
I'm stoked to see that more people are cool or indifferent to motorized access! If someone sprays you w/ rocks it was a person that was responsible not an entire demographic.These whiney little "wars" just keep the cycle that PSP noted going on forever.Short of rape, robbery or murder on public lands just let whatever be, be. Allamuchy/ Stephens/ Saxton used to be a wonderland back in the day and we all rode happily together.Then the combo of enforcement and kids playin those stupid video games lead to the decline of the ORVs and the conditions of the park. Why doesn't anyone complain about the trail layout and constant moto at Stewart?? Maybe cause it's freakin awesome??!! Just saw that fallgirl was complaining about Stewart.Maybe she didn't realize the place is moto central.......
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Trail Design
Sean - Overall I would agree wityh you, however what is going on is the exact opposite. As ryderx pointed out they (quads) have gone up the ditch/cardiac single track that has been put in. Which does have chokes on it and is not a straight line - fast trail. Others (former moto guy) have even commented that this trail does not have flow! Another example is the new cardiac bypass trail on top of the Tranquility side. Again slower tighter trail, enough rocks in it to make it fun. Quads have been on that one as well.
One of the diff I see between the two parks is the police presence. MCP has a much better organized and staffed force. The State is woefully understaffed, and perhaps under motivated. I feel it would be very easy to catch Quads at Allamuchy as well. There are three places that they are using as access. The problem is getting the Park Police to act. I am sure most of this inaction is based on the Ringwood incident.
So to those that do not appreciate the Quad use in the Park, we will be setting up a meeting withthe Park Police to discuss this and see what they can do to work this out. We will offer up, as we have in the past, help from the mnt bike community. We will have to see what their current view is on this.
The best we can do now is to call the Park (973-398-7010) and the DEP Hot Line (877-WARN-DEP or 927-6337) to report the illegal use.
BTW, this also applies for the pirate trail building that is poping up in Allamcuchy (along the Sussex Branch Trail and Deer Park) and in Kittatiny.
Sean - Overall I would agree wityh you, however what is going on is the exact opposite. As ryderx pointed out they (quads) have gone up the ditch/cardiac single track that has been put in. Which does have chokes on it and is not a straight line - fast trail. Others (former moto guy) have even commented that this trail does not have flow! Another example is the new cardiac bypass trail on top of the Tranquility side. Again slower tighter trail, enough rocks in it to make it fun. Quads have been on that one as well.
One of the diff I see between the two parks is the police presence. MCP has a much better organized and staffed force. The State is woefully understaffed, and perhaps under motivated. I feel it would be very easy to catch Quads at Allamuchy as well. There are three places that they are using as access. The problem is getting the Park Police to act. I am sure most of this inaction is based on the Ringwood incident.
So to those that do not appreciate the Quad use in the Park, we will be setting up a meeting withthe Park Police to discuss this and see what they can do to work this out. We will offer up, as we have in the past, help from the mnt bike community. We will have to see what their current view is on this.
The best we can do now is to call the Park (973-398-7010) and the DEP Hot Line (877-WARN-DEP or 927-6337) to report the illegal use.
BTW, this also applies for the pirate trail building that is poping up in Allamcuchy (along the Sussex Branch Trail and Deer Park) and in Kittatiny.
anrothar
entirely thrilled
which has nothing to do with mahlon. wma's are state and are lucky to have one person occasionally checking them out outside of hunting season.
bob, i'm not entirely sure on the names of the trails over there. is ditch the one with the water bar jumps when descending it? i've seen quad tracks going around there, but that's a pretty open bypass around a really lousy section of trails. not saying it's right, but it's logical.
were the tracks on the cardiac(the one that goes back and forth across the original trail??) showing up multiple times or just once or twice?
maybe the reason mahlon sees such little motorized use, aside from the enforcement, is that there is sooo much land adjacent to it that is unpatrolled and, in practice if not theory, open to orv use. with stephens being incoorporated into a managed, non-motorized trail system, there really isn't much of anything adjacent to the mooch withoutcrossing 206 that is an unpatrolled outlet for motorized use.
it's sort of like the new developments popping up everywhere and the residents that move in complaining about the bears. the bears were there first, it was their habitat. all of a sudden it was taken away from them. they're bound to show up.
that is part of the White Tr, Ditch is balzed purple and is the other long uphill to the right (looking east from the Tranquility Trailhead). The other trail, not blazed, is on top of the hill, rollie pollie comes into it.
I'll take bears anyday, they keep single track skinny!
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NJMX835
New Member
It's amazing (or not) how humans artifically segregate into our little groups & make war with each other.
Besides moutain bikers being expected (it appears) to hate motos & quads, if you read any moto board you will find moto's & quad riders hate each other as well.
Can't we all play nice in the sandbox together?
Besides moutain bikers being expected (it appears) to hate motos & quads, if you read any moto board you will find moto's & quad riders hate each other as well.
Can't we all play nice in the sandbox together?
SpartaBard
Well-Known Member
Not when it is illegal for other users to be in the sandbox.
NJMX835
New Member
If it became illegal to ride mountain bikes anywhere in the state would you quit riding?
J
Jeff
Guest
Have you ever thought about it from their perspective? Or that this new trail of yours is an old route of theirs? I know certain types of riding situations for MTB riders occur few and far between, but you have to realize that the same applies for quaders. Perhaps the one spot with enough rocks to make it fun for you is also the one place with enough of a grade and whatever element it may be to make it fun for them.
And when you talk about ATVs not being allowed there... yeah. To be an active rider these days, you pretty much have to be at peace with riding where you're "not allowed". It makes you sad, but then riding makes you happier again. In fact, if not for the stress of having to always ride where we're not supposed to, we might get too happy! So thanks for that at least!
Well that happens on discussion boards, but out on the trails I have run into many many quad guys on my bike and have yet to get into an argument with one bc I was on a 2 wheeler. I definetly get more crap from the 2-stroke kool-aid drinkers than I do from quad guys.
The trend over the past few years has been to take a hard line against them, enacting state wide laws and local ordinances. This was partly fueled by the WMA police officer that was run over, injuries to kids and the envori lobby. Problem is that ownership has proliferated so widely that the local cops ride them , every other household up north has one.
Faced with that reality it is my opinion that the best way to move forward is to sanction regulated use and form a new land management division with a sales tax, registration fees and fines. We have been spending millions each year for open space aquisition and will soon tap out the supply. Makes sense to then move on to resource management. Lets direct some money to make new state jobs so we don't have to give up so many weekends workin the dirt.
Faced with that reality it is my opinion that the best way to move forward is to sanction regulated use and form a new land management division with a sales tax, registration fees and fines. We have been spending millions each year for open space aquisition and will soon tap out the supply. Makes sense to then move on to resource management. Lets direct some money to make new state jobs so we don't have to give up so many weekends workin the dirt.