Ask an automobile mechanic.

Fat Trout

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according to my wife who designs oil for castrol its all about fuel economy and the new CAFE regulations. Tighter tolerances higher operating temperatures and better additives allow for it to still provide plenty of lubrication. The next thing will be 0w16.
My wife's 2019 Rav 4 is 0w16. I was like 0w what? OK. it is what it is so thats what I buy. 5w20 is acceptable if necessary it says but I don't deviate from mfg requirements even if my other vehicles are 5w20
 
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shrpshtr325

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My wife's 2019 Rav 4 is 0w16. I was like 0w what? OK. it is what it is so thats what I buy. 5w20 is acceptable if necessary it says but I don't deviate from mfg requirements even if my other vehicles are 5w20

yup going thinner to meet the CAFE requirements, thank the environuts for this one (as well as the death of automotive fun)
 
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don

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yup going thinner to meet the CAFE requirements, thank the environuts for this one (as well as the death of automotive fun)

Do these environuts ever consider longevity in their equations? Wouldn't a robust design like the 5.7 hemi or GM LS where with decent (not even good) maintenance they can go hundreds of thousands of miles be a better model?
 

1TrackMind

Active Member
Do these environuts ever consider longevity in their equations? Wouldn't a robust design like the 5.7 hemi or GM LS where with decent (not even good) maintenance they can go hundreds of thousands of miles be a better model?
I don’t see how longevity and efficiency are conflicting interests, cars have become longer lasting along with being more efficient. The average age of cars on the road (14yrs I think) is the longest it has ever been. My car is approaching 300k using a 0-20.
 
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shrpshtr325

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Do these environuts ever consider longevity in their equations? Wouldn't a robust design like the 5.7 hemi or GM LS where with decent (not even good) maintenance they can go hundreds of thousands of miles be a better model?

nope, they would rather us all be driving around with power cords hanging out of the bumper replacing the cars ever couple years. Those of us who actually keep cars to 150-200k and beyond are going to have troubles with that.
 

don

Well-Known Member
I don’t see how longevity and efficiency are conflicting interests, cars have become longer lasting along with being more efficient. The average age of cars on the road (14yrs I think) is the longest it has ever been. My car is approaching 300k using a 0-20.

I agree longevity and efficiency can both exist but there might be a pivot point. Like you said the average age of cars went up (I think I heard 12 years and it was supply side issues that helped boost that number up).

Those 12 year old vehicles might have been at that sweet spot for durability. We have a 2011 Ram 1500 5.7 in the driveway and while is has some overall rust and wear issues (it spent it's early life in Canada) the drivetrain hasn't been an issue. On the flip side my 2019 Ram with just 55k miles has had a check engine light for the DEF pump for the past few months. Ram won't cover it (even with an extended factory warranty and I've always had it serviced by the dealer). I'm all for clean diesels but at what costs especially as they get older with more miles? BTW - Gale Banks said on his podcast recently where he could get his military engines to pass emissions with tuning, turbo and other configurations not emission add-on's

I'm guessing the 300k 0-20 oil car was a Toyota? And there is a difference between 0-16 and 20. It sounds like from what @shrpshtr325 posted the trend will go even thinner weight oil and tighter tolerances (and more complex engine design?). Maybe the new stuff will last way longer - I hope so :thumbs:
 

shrpshtr325

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0-16 is coming from the imports right now Honda and Mazda seem to be pushing for it.

0-12 is also coming. Mostly for hybrids.

0-20 is used by alot of cars these days including Honda Ford I think even dodge has a couple engines that use it. I know the srt engines sre running a 0-40.
 
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1TrackMind

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I agree longevity and efficiency can both exist but there might be a pivot point. Like you said the average age of cars went up (I think I heard 12 years and it was supply side issues that helped boost that number up).

Those 12 year old vehicles might have been at that sweet spot for durability. We have a 2011 Ram 1500 5.7 in the driveway and while is has some overall rust and wear issues (it spent it's early life in Canada) the drivetrain hasn't been an issue. On the flip side my 2019 Ram with just 55k miles has had a check engine light for the DEF pump for the past few months. Ram won't cover it (even with an extended factory warranty and I've always had it serviced by the dealer). I'm all for clean diesels but at what costs especially as they get older with more miles? BTW - Gale Banks said on his podcast recently where he could get his military engines to pass emissions with tuning, turbo and other configurations not emission add-on's

I'm guessing the 300k 0-20 oil car was a Toyota? And there is a difference between 0-16 and 20. It sounds like from what @shrpshtr325 posted the trend will go even thinner weight oil and tighter tolerances (and more complex engine design?). Maybe the new stuff will last way longer - I hope so :thumbs:
Yes, it is a Toyota, and not to jinx it but I am amazed at how smooth the engine still runs. I guess I don’t worry about oil that much because my cars have never died as a result friction/lube issues, it was always the front end going to a point repair isn’t worth it, but now I try to be more proactive with that. I agree there’s is definitely a point of diminished returns, but I figured an engine life is likely related to the amount fuel burned in relation to size… more efficiency is less combustion cycles which is less wear and tear. I read somewhere car makers shoot for 10 year longevity on parts and justify that with safety features evolve such that you don’t want old unsafe cars out there with newer cars. ( I’m sure they use a different model for big trucks / diesels) But now that these things are priced the same as a house in the south, and people financing over 8 yrs… i hope they last longer than that.
 

don

Well-Known Member
Yes, it is a Toyota, and not to jinx it but I am amazed at how smooth the engine still runs. I guess I don’t worry about oil that much because my cars have never died as a result friction/lube issues, it was always the front end going to a point repair isn’t worth it, but now I try to be more proactive with that. I agree there’s is definitely a point of diminished returns, but I figured an engine life is likely related to the amount fuel burned in relation to size… more efficiency is less combustion cycles which is less wear and tear. I read somewhere car makers shoot for 10 year longevity on parts and justify that with safety features evolve such that you don’t want old unsafe cars out there with newer cars. ( I’m sure they use a different model for big trucks / diesels) But now that these things are priced the same as a house in the south, and people financing over 8 yrs… i hope they last longer than that.

Very good points on fuel used over 200k+ miles/10 years and these less combustion cycles over that time which is certainly a part of longevity.

I didn't think of the safety features of newer cars. I had an instance a few months ago where a car stopped short in a yield lane and I was in the 2019 Ram. The safety stop of the Ram kicked in and saved me from a potentially bad collision. Longevity or not safer cars is a great thing. Although new drivers might get used to be more relaxed with distracted driving.

Truth be told a vehicle that can last 12 years/250k miles is a good mark. I think the problem is that many of these cars are getting so expensive (like you said house price / 8 year finance expensive) that they should be able to hit that mark without costing just as much to keep on the road. Toyota has been able to do this, Audi, BMW, MB I'm not so sure.
 

mfennell

Well-Known Member
BTW - Gale Banks said on his podcast recently where he could get his military engines to pass emissions with tuning, turbo and other configurations not emission add-on's
My guess is that Gale Banks doesn't know the first thing about OEM emission requirements. If they could make it work w/o extra equipment, they'd do so in a second. OEMs create algorithms to model temps so they don't have to install a sensor that cost a couple bucks. But somehow they missed Gale's magic formula? No way.
 
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don

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My guess is that Gale Banks doesn't know the first thing about OEM emission requirements. If they could make it work w/o extra equipment, they'd do so in a second. OEMs create algorithms to model temps so they don't have to install a sensor that cost a couple bucks. But somehow they missed Gale's magic formula? No way.

I listened to a few more of Banks' podcasts (helped that I drove 1000 miles this past weekend). On the last handful of episodes he talks about emissions in each one. He is definitely a proponent of clean diesels and says over and over that smoky exhaust is unused fuel and power and higher EGT's. He also goes on to say that certain aftermarket tunes create more re-gen cycles which is harder on the emissions equipment.

From what I can remember the first time I head it he was a little vague on the non emission equipment engines (or more likely I didn't get all the details). Anyway, the Dutch are buying his engines for their military use as they pass the Euro 3 level of diesel emissions without any equipment (which keeps things more simple and reliable for tactical military use). He said it took a lot of air measuring tools and tuning to get the engine to burn that clean but he did not have to use an EGR system.

This is what I could find on euro emission standards: https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/advice/emissions/euro-emissions-standards/

Podcast:
 

ekuhn

Well-Known Member
Where can I get a commercial F150 inspected that won’t bother me about front tinted windows in central or north Jersey? I’d hate to rip them off for one day just to get them redone.
 

Carson

Sport Bacon
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Where can I get a commercial F150 inspected that won’t bother me about front tinted windows in central or north Jersey? I’d hate to rip them off for one day just to get them redone.

State inspection facility. They only check emissions related stuff now. Equipment and tint violations are now not considered.
 
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