I love America and Americans but the "American Dream" died...for the most part.

Patrick

Overthinking the draft from the basement already
Staff member
And now you have millions?

you say it like it seems impossible?

$1.5M+ is $100/wk invested from 25->65yo in a tax deferred account (assuming 8% from stock market). (i'm not saying it is easy - it is not.)
but it is doable. now consider if a company made a match - say $20/wk - that is $1.8M
Then as income goes up, contribution goes up - it quickly goes over $2M and will approach $3M.

around 65 you pack it in and start collecting SS. conservatively $1,700/mo, and $3M throws off $13,000/mo in dividend.
you get all tax smart and have to manage that kind of income. maybe even deferring SS. Meanwhile the house is paid off,
and you downsize - lowering carrying costs - maybe move to a cheaper location.

the biggest problem is that in year 10 it will be around $80k, around year 20, you'll only have around $300,000 and won't see a way of getting from
there to $1.5 - but it will happen.

more retirement thread oriented, but it is the basic formula to get from here to retirement.
 

Mahnken

Well-Known Member
you say it like it seems impossible?

$1.5M+ is $100/wk invested from 25->65yo in a tax deferred account (assuming 8% from stock market). (i'm not saying it is easy - it is not.)
but it is doable. now consider if a company made a match - say $20/wk - that is $1.8M
Then as income goes up, contribution goes up - it quickly goes over $2M and will approach $3M.

around 65 you pack it in and start collecting SS. conservatively $1,700/mo, and $3M throws off $13,000/mo in dividend.
you get all tax smart and have to manage that kind of income. maybe even deferring SS. Meanwhile the house is paid off,
and you downsize - lowering carrying costs - maybe move to a cheaper location.

the biggest problem is that in year 10 it will be around $80k, around year 20, you'll only have around $300,000 and won't see a way of getting from
there to $1.5 - but it will happen.

more retirement thread oriented, but it is the basic formula to get from here to retirement.

Not impossible, and not that hard when you put it that way. But I haven't had the unfortunate circumstance of starting from nothing. My wife and I both came from families that supported us, and helped us navigate the early years of adulthood. For people who don't have that, it does seem impossible. And I don't think a lot of people are taught, or have any clue that $100 a week= a nice retirement.
The thing is, I know damn well if I lived in the other side of the neighborhood, with a different set of parents, I wouldn't be where I am today. I think I'd probably be working crap jobs, barely able to make rent, and be buried in debt. It's not easy when you don't have help or guidance, or worse, being guided down the wrong path.
If we don't invest in the most vulnerable populations, there will always be a ton of poverty.
If raising my taxes would pay for universal healthcare, I'd be all for it. If raising my taxes would help pay for educating the poor communities, sign me up. Raise my taxes, give the impoverished communities a community center that focuses on guiding the kids towards a better future.
I've got enough, my kids will have enough. I want to help the people who don't see a way out.
 

Mahnken

Well-Known Member
I guess I'm just really confused by why there are so many people who are against taxing the people who have enough money to last many lifetimes. Why are we letting Walmart pay their employees so little, that they still need government assistance (we're subsidizing their workforce? Why?). And then we want to give them tax breaks on top of that? Why is there such an emphasis in this country to keep the money at the top, and keep the poor, ridiculously poor?
 

clarkenstein

JORBA Board Member/Chapter Leader
JORBA.ORG
I guess I'm just really confused by why there are so many people who are against taxing the people who have enough money to last many lifetimes. Why are we letting Walmart pay their employees so little, that they still need government assistance (we're subsidizing their workforce? Why?). And then we want to give them tax breaks on top of that? Why is there such an emphasis in this country to keep the money at the top, and keep the poor, ridiculously poor?
Not disagreeing here - just that’s a lot of questions and there are answers, maybe not all answers are great or ones you would agree with. I like to work in bite size chunks.

First - “why are we letting Walmart pay their employees so little, that they still need government assistance (we’re subsidizing their workforce? Why?).”

First question in response is - who determines who lets who do what? The government? The senate? Local government? Or should the market decide? If people don’t like the way Walmart employees are treated, they shouldn’t shop there. If people can’t afford to not shop there, that’s another issue. I choose not to myself. Anyway, who should be granted this power to tell everyone what Walmart (and every other business) what to pay everyone, and who will grant that power to whoever gets it? That’s a big question because that means what you’re paid should go under scrutiny too. Me as well. Everyone’s earnings will be dictated by this person/group/entity? Would you want that power to end up in Biden’s hands, or Trump’s hands? I prefer to let people and the market choose what they want to offer without the government telling them to. That said - minimum wage requirements absolutely are necessary because abuses happen. And the labor laws absolutely necessary because abuses happen. But if Walmart has certain task oriented jobs that don’t require decision making in anyway, what is the hourly rate that should be given? Is Walmart having a hard time filling those jobs or is there a demand for them?
For the subsidies, do you mean we are paying Walmart directly, or do you mean the employees don’t make enough so they need to be on government assistance programs?

Tax breaks later.
 

stb222

Love Drunk
Jerk Squad
Not disagreeing here - just that’s a lot of questions and there are answers, maybe not all answers are great or ones you would agree with. I like to work in bite size chunks.

First - “why are we letting Walmart pay their employees so little, that they still need government assistance (we’re subsidizing their workforce? Why?).”

First question in response is - who determines who lets who do what? The government? The senate? Local government? Or should the market decide? If people don’t like the way Walmart employees are treated, they shouldn’t shop there. If people can’t afford to not shop there, that’s another issue. I choose not to myself. Anyway, who should be granted this power to tell everyone what Walmart (and every other business) what to pay everyone, and who will grant that power to whoever gets it? That’s a big question because that means what you’re paid should go under scrutiny too. Me as well. Everyone’s earnings will be dictated by this person/group/entity? Would you want that power to end up in Biden’s hands, or Trump’s hands? I prefer to let people and the market choose what they want to offer without the government telling them to. That said - minimum wage requirements absolutely are necessary because abuses happen. And the labor laws absolutely necessary because abuses happen. But if Walmart has certain task oriented jobs that don’t require decision making in anyway, what is the hourly rate that should be given? Is Walmart having a hard time filling those jobs or is there a demand for them?
For the subsidies, do you mean we are paying Walmart directly, or do you mean the employees don’t make enough so they need to be on government assistance programs?

Tax breaks later.
For me, part of the problem is that minimum wage jobs are not necessarily supposed to be a career. I have been going to the Wegmans in Princeton for at least 15 years. Some of the same people have either stocked the shelves or worked the sub line for as long as I can remember. I have no issue with people doing that, but that is their end game?
So now these people say they can’t live because the wages are too low. I guess this is no different then going to the box factory everyday.
 

Dave Taylor

Rex kwan Do
I neither had a helping hand, nor "old money" but that's nice that so many of you have.
And that's kinda the point. The bulk of people that make it in America had help from someone who made it already. The few that are the exception are you. Think beyond working super hard, minimum wage jobs...you can use nepotism in this country and become the superintendent of public works to make $150k/yr but I guarantee no one from Clinton Street in Newark made it there.
 

Mahnken

Well-Known Member
For me, part of the problem is that minimum wage jobs are not necessarily supposed to be a career. I have been going to the Wegmans in Princeton for at least 15 years. Some of the same people have either stocked the shelves or worked the sub line for as long as I can remember. I have no issue with people doing that, but that is their end game?
So now these people say they can’t live because the wages are too low. I guess this is no different then going to the box factory everyday.
I don't know how much interaction you have with the general public, but I don't think it's a stretch to say that, for some, that may very well be the height of their potential. And if you're busting your dick for 40 hours a week, I really don't care how much skill is required, you deserve a living wage.
 

clarkenstein

JORBA Board Member/Chapter Leader
JORBA.ORG
That’s an issue, but how many Walmart employees are on government programs? What are their personal spending habits? that kind of info is important to have a discussion based in fact. I’m honestly curious to know. I imagine more than a few people. But it’s not impossible. In no way am I saying it’s easy and stress free.

I don't know how much interaction you have with the general public, but I don't think it's a stretch to say that, for some, that may very well be the height of their potential. And if you're busting your dick for 40 hours a week, I really don't care how much skill is required, you deserve a living wage.
Living wage is where the issue starts. I think all of this can/should be dealt with locally. Federal govt blanket approach just doesn’t work. Tax rate scales for income in Iowa just make no sense for NJ. One size fits all does not make sense. So I think a living wage in Iowa is a lot different than one in NJ. That’s market driven though, not government driven. What’s your thoughts on that? Should the market decide locally?

- - -

I also have some solid experience living on the low income side of things. And I grew up in Bernardsville. Which is hilarious to even think that could come out of someone’s mouth - low income in Bernardsville?!?. My father’s hardware store did not do well for years and years, he didn’t get in the black until the recession in the 90s - great timing, right. Lots of earned income credits got us through. I was the first person in my family - including extended family - to graduate college. And what did I choose to major in? Music. Yep. I had no idea WTF I was doing haha. But I paid my way working jobs and getting paid gigs (music) while in school, so my money, my choice. RU was cheap anyway. I lived as a freelance musician for years after school. That was hard. I was poor, but had some promising stuff happening. I won best music at a NYU film festival for a score I wrote for a horror movie. A band I was playing in was written up in Rolling Stone and I was opening for National acts - like Soul Asylum. Sat in on a recording session in Nashville with Annie Roboff (wrote Faith Hill’s hit. This Kiss). I was going places, so I thought. Then 9/11 happens and all my gigs disappeared. I had just met my future wife. She lost her dot com job. I went back to NJ, tail between my legs and got the first job I could get. Bank teller paying under $16k/year in the early 2000s. That bank teller gig sucked, but it had a 401k. And yes I contributed because my wife (girlfriend at the time) said I had to and she is amazing with money. Still have that 401k. I credit her for showing me the light on this stuff. She’s a smart cookie. That said, the two of us made $16k work while she was in grad school. Then she got a teaching gig and it was my turn for school, and this time I went for accounting. Some classes at community college, then a grad degree on an accelerated timeline while temping to get some experience doing accounts payable... Fast forward about 20 years and now I’m a CPA working in biotech putting in shit tons of hours but I’m in those peak years, so I’ll take it. I can still play a mean bass, and am doing well. Took some chances with job choices to get equity and that worked out too. And those student loans are long gone.

Under $16k annually in 2002 was not easy ~$8.25/hr give or take). There was a lot of stress and it would have been nice for me to be paid more at that bank teller gig, but I took the reigns and decided to change things. Was $16k “livable”? I made it livable. But there was no extra stuff to be had. I had to make a lot of choices that honestly sucked while my friends who figured out this stuff earlier were living it up.

But I’m a white male with a great education. I could not imagine what it would be like to come here from a foreign country with no professional background or formal education. It would be extremely tough, and I would imagine one would have to work stupid hard to get a foundation started. I think that opportunity is still there.
 

Patrick

Overthinking the draft from the basement already
Staff member
And that's kinda the point. The bulk of people that make it in America had help from someone who made it already. The few that are the exception are you. Think beyond working super hard, minimum wage jobs...you can use nepotism in this country and become the superintendent of public works to make $150k/yr but I guarantee no one from Clinton Street in Newark made it there.

Joe Louis Clark?
 
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Patrick

Overthinking the draft from the basement already
Staff member
Walmart - hires just about everyone. Many unemployable in other sectors. They find something that a worker can do at their skill level.
They also charge extremely low prices - razor thin margins. People shop there to save money. So they pay low skilled workers a low wage,
and charge low prices.

you can tax me all ya want and it still wont help people with IQs below 60 or significant challenges get higher paying jobs.
so our money goes to programs that bring our needy along as far as they can, and we have to fill in the rest with subsidies.
having unskilled jobs pay in-line with skilled jobs is not a way to provide incentives to grow.

I pay taxes to support the subsidies for people that work there so walmart doesn't have to raise prices. cause that screws the people that shop there exclusively,
or they are on the same government program - and it will need to increase its subsidy

---

now there is plenty of room for improvement in providing opportunity - and support.
OTOH, "i'm from the government, and i'm here to help" doesn't go over really well - anywhere.

still can't give up - that doesn't make sense. perhaps that will be the one big thing that comes out of the current
realization of such injustice - more people that are aware/motivated to do something about it.

---

I'll throw this one out there. I know plenty of people who didn't have problems with school, that came from homes with the means and support
for their kid, and they still ended up in jail, or working unskilled jobs. Who we blaming that on?
(i'd pick television myself, specifically kubrick, but the mindless 70s dreck also)

or is that different because the opportunity was there?
 

Dave Taylor

Rex kwan Do
Walmart - hires just about everyone. Many unemployable in other sectors. They find something that a worker can do at their skill level.
They also charge extremely low prices - razor thin margins. People shop there to save money. So they pay low skilled workers a low wage,
and charge low prices.

you can tax me all ya want and it still wont help people with IQs below 60 or significant challenges get higher paying jobs.
so our money goes to programs that bring our needy along as far as they can, and we have to fill in the rest with subsidies.
having unskilled jobs pay in-line with skilled jobs is not a way to provide incentives to grow.

I pay taxes to support the subsidies for people that work there so walmart doesn't have to raise prices. cause that screws the people that shop there exclusively,
or they are on the same government program - and it will need to increase its subsidy

---

now there is plenty of room for improvement in providing opportunity - and support.
OTOH, "i'm from the government, and i'm here to help" doesn't go over really well - anywhere.

still can't give up - that doesn't make sense. perhaps that will be the one big thing that comes out of the current
realization of such injustice - more people that are aware/motivated to do something about it.

---

I'll throw this one out there. I know plenty of people who didn't have problems with school, that came from homes with the means and support
for their kid, and they still ended up in jail, or working unskilled jobs. Who we blaming that on?
(i'd pick television myself, specifically kubrick, but the mindless 70s dreck also)

or is that different because the opportunity was there?
I know those people as well. My high school valedictorian went to a d1 school on a full scholarship. He was a very smart kid but 15 years later he ended up working for my mother at the United States golf Association as an administrative assistant. He was now 300+ pounds not the former basketball star that he wants was and instead he was a recovering drug addict.Long story short he got hooked on drugs while he was in college.

Perhaps if we text you and those taxes actually went to the places that matter like Newark Public schools and we could make those schools equivalent to Bernards Township or Hillsborough or North Hunterdon type of high school we would be onto something. If we rewind to the beginning of this thread it’s really about opportunity and the opportunity is not equal among everyone. Perhaps with the proper education those people with an IQ less than 60 would have an IQ more than 60 now but that doesn’t happen here. It doesn’t just happen like this for young people either some old people I guess missed the boat when they didn’t learn about investing so now they are stuck suffering because they have no money because they weren’t taught about investing. The American dream used to be work hard save your money by your house and you will succeed. That does not work for everyone now. You really need to have a grasp on investments and retirement and that is not broad base knowledge for everyone.
 

Patrick

Overthinking the draft from the basement already
Staff member
n IQ less than 60 would have an IQ more than 60

IQ works more as measure of the raw material, and it is up to the system (in the case of lower 15%)
how it is realized to its fullest potential. But I think that is where you were going.

-

Opportunity.
schools are certainly one core part -

Newark (like many cities) separates the gifted (or motivated - cause plenty of kids got the smarts)
from the general student population.


numbers seem good there - but damn, does it become one of those Pygmalion things?
the expectations and acceptable behavior in the environment drives the success (and failure) rate.
 
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Dave Taylor

Rex kwan Do
IQ works more as measure of the raw material, and it is up to the system (in the case of lower 15%)
how it is realized to its fullest potential. But I think that is where you were going.

-

Opportunity.
schools are certainly one core part -

Newark (like many cities) separates the gifted (or motivated - cause plenty of kids got the smarts)
from the general student population.


numbers seem good there - but damn, does it become one of those Pygmalion things?
the expectations and acceptable behavior in the environment drives the success (and failure) rate.
I don’t have all the answers. I can tell you that IQ is not everything as I know some friends with very low IQs that have accomplished a lot. I have a good friend in Colorado who is so passionate and curious about his hobbies and he makes them work and he really excels at them. There is also a fine line between IQ and mechanical ability. This same friend would have a difficult time spelling your name, adding 2 +2 but somehow figured out how to swap chevy 350 into a fiero with no engine hoist, in the dead of winter in Lakewood, Co. I guess IQ can be relevant to an extent.
 

Fire Lord Jim

Well-Known Member
If you believe that those born poor have to stay poor, Google Dave Ramsey. He has a proven formula taking people from less than poor to millionaire. He is harsh: no consumer debt, no 30 year mortgage, eat rice and beans, drive a $1000 car, live like no one else today, so you can live and give like no one else tomorrow. This isn't the anecdotal data of I know one, you know one, instead empirical data.

To those who think that taxing for providing education, I would point you to your property tax bill and your compulsory 12 years of education. We have already taxed, educated, and somehow the students weren't taught. A government that won't make a budget, that hands out $600 checks, that has shown its incompetence in everything other than blowing stuff up, when asked to solve this problem may try, but is not going to get it close to right.
 

rick81721

Lothar
I guess I'm just really confused by why there are so many people who are against taxing the people who have enough money to last many lifetimes. Why are we letting Walmart pay their employees so little, that they still need government assistance (we're subsidizing their workforce? Why?). And then we want to give them tax breaks on top of that? Why is there such an emphasis in this country to keep the money at the top, and keep the poor, ridiculously poor?

Who isn't paying taxes? Taxing the "rich" doesn't solve any of the problems you describe. Thinking that higher taxes will go to helping the poor is lala land
 

Mahnken

Well-Known Member
Walmart - hires just about everyone. Many unemployable in other sectors. They find something that a worker can do at their skill level.
They also charge extremely low prices - razor thin margins. People shop there to save money. So they pay low skilled workers a low wage,
and charge low prices.
You make it sound like walmart can't afford to pay it's employees more, which is completely false. Their margins aren't as razor thin as you believe they are. It's said that when a new walmart opens their doors for the first time, they already have a months payroll ready to go just from promotional fees that they charge their sellers. Part of their low prices is forcing their suppliers to reduce their prices, which they do by moving jobs out of america to China where workers are making $0.25 an hour. And they run like a consignment shop, the sellers take all the risk, walmart doesn't pay them until the products are sold at retail, and they don't pay for returns. They also run far more efficiently than most other businesses, partly by putting a lot of the logistics in the hands of their suppliers. They can easily pay more, they just don't want to. Profit is king.
 

Dave Taylor

Rex kwan Do
Who isn't paying taxes? Taxing the "rich" doesn't solve any of the problems you describe. Thinking that higher taxes will go to helping the poor is lala land
Your just supporting my thoughts. Theoretically taxes shouuld help but this country is so corrupt that the taxes go elsewhere. I am not by any means a socialist or a conservative but take Germany for example they have lots of good things going for them. They have some sort of capitalism some sort of Socialism and it works, the people are taken care of. When you start a new job in Germany one month paid vacation is standard when you have a child you get one through two years paid maternity leave. All I’m saying is it doesn’t have to be as bad as it is in America with the separation between the poor and the rich. The American dream of getting married having two kids having her own house by 30 years old is it really a dream when our divorce rate is so high in foreclosure rates are so high ask yourself be honest.
 
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