Yellow trail at the "pile of logs" closed off

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Blair

Well-Known Member
ive been working to get into the top 5 for a loop segmant all of last summer, come back this season to find out every fallen tree addes a second or two to my time, ill never get the time now :(
Oh well, you used to be able to bomb the downhill and make up that time but I guess you will work on your enduro turns instead. Haha
 

GJ11

Member
personally, I wasnt going to respond to this thread until I read this:
quoting @GJ11 "I'd be happy to do that but to what end? If sections of trail are going to be opened and closed without any input, or worse yet, with a wink and a nod, then what purpose do these sessions serve other than to further an agenda which is not in the best interest of the group?"

Are you for real?
Best interest of what group?
Cross country riders?
downhillers?
hikers?
Horses?
Grandmas and Grandpas with 5 yr old kids?

Dont like how the trails are being taken care of? go ride somewhere else!
You should be THANKFUL there are ANY trails at all without nitpicking and nagging over 100 foot of trail. I just dont get you people who complain over small sections of trail without being super thankful about all the other miles and miles that people build without being paid or thanked for it, all they hear are complaints.
Miss a gnarly downhill? go ride Platty for your downhill fix.

Personally I am thankful for all the work done on NJ trails.
JORBA rock on!
I think you might have this out of context. Re-read the whole thread and specifically Jason's comments on page 1. Thanks
 

GJ11

Member
@GJ11

I am going to disagree with your assessment that the trail was ok/good/fine. Was it the worst trail I have ever been on? No, not really. But I think you are being disingenuous to say it was fine. My thoughts:

1. As someone who has ridden this trail for 10-ish years on & off, there is pretty much a 100% correlation with going downhill and locking the brakes up. I would imagine that 49 out of 50 people would agree with that, and you would be the dissenting vote in that survey (ok maybe 48 as you'd make your wife vote too). Now, ignoring my fabricated stats, if indeed most people lock up the brakes on the downhill, does that indicate good trail design? Be honest in answering that. And I will cut you off at the pass right now. You will lose points on your paper if you say I am a poorly skilled rider.

2. This trail has washed out how many times? I can remember at least 2 different projects on this trail to make it better. But at this point the thing is double-wide. You can drive a jeep up it. For sure you need at least some grade reversals to keep it from needing constant attention. I mean go out there and take a pic of it, the worst spots. I don't think you can say it hasn't gotten worse/wider/looser. Maybe the trail could have stayed where it was, just maybe extended out with a bunch of grade reversals to allow for better drainage. Or maybe not, IDK what the lay of the land is. Maybe this is just what needed to happen there.

3. It sucks to climb.

So having said all of the above, I will say this. It was fun to bomb downhill. And I enjoyed it every time I did and locked the brakes up going into that turn. I suspect that this is really all you are saying: that you liked to bomb down this and it sucks that you won't be able to anymore. I can appreciate that. And I respect that you have more or less kept this discussion civil. However, the demanding justice and a scientific justification for what amounts to a subjective assessment of point #3 above is a bit much.

I am not going to tell you that you should go to meetings, or write up proposals, or write your congressman, or any of that. I have been where you are before. And I know when people say that, it sounds kinda like nonsense. I also know that the MCPC is a tough nut to work with, and the guys deal with a lot of frustration on that end. On that note, I would ask that you consider that when voicing your objections. I am not saying not to. Just saying that these guys are in a tough spot. MCPC is tough to work with. Then some elements of the bike community are hard to work with.

At the end of the day, I think you need to see trail building like a free meal. You're cooking it? Well then hell yes I'm thankful.
I'll just have to agree to disagree with you here. Much of what you posted deals with personal preference and I respect your opinion.
 

Norm

Mayor McCheese
Team MTBNJ Halter's
I'll just have to agree to disagree with you here. Much of what you posted deals with personal preference and I respect your opinion.

Agreed. All good. I wish all Internet arguments were this civil.

If you have Friday off come out to RV and you can personally craft some of the switchbacks we're putting in. I'll even buy you lunch.
 

jumpa

Well-Known Member
Agreed. All good. I wish all Internet arguments were this civil.

If you have Friday off come out to RV and you can personally craft some of the switchbacks we're putting in. I'll even buy you lunch.

Wait...can I have a "civil" online argument with you to ? I'd like lunch.
 

Patrick

Overthinking the draft from the basement already
Staff member
I'll just have to agree to disagree with you here. Much of what you posted deals with personal preference and I respect your opinion.
Agreed. All good. I wish all Internet arguments were this civil.

If you have Friday off come out to RV and you can personally craft some of the switchbacks we're putting in. I'll even buy you lunch.

i thought you two might have been the same person for a bit.....

we are leaving the fence side trail at RV....straight down with water bars!

----

@GJ11, what seems to be the most important issues to you? feel free to list all, but
i've re-read, and it grew more nebulous as the thread progressed.

when was the last time you were at LM? trail work in this area has been going on since last septemberish (?) - the new route wasn't really noticeable until a couple months ago.
i'm too lazy to look when it was announced here.
 

icebiker

JORBA: Morris Trails
JORBA.ORG
@GJ11

You're welcome. I'm not as savvy at multi-thread quotes, so let me answer your questions old-school style:

1) Re: Trail Proposal and Meeting Minutes. Unfortunately I do not attend said meetings. While I’d love to and do think they are important, my work, family and business travel schedule barely leaves me enough time to organize and host trail dates, let alone get a ride in once a week. So I focus on the core of our volunteer crew’s mission: Building and remediating trails. As a result, I make my proposals directly with MCPC’s Trail Foreman. He, in turn, coordinates with the Naturalist and any other required parties to get the approval. Once he gives me the green light, we go to work.

2) Re: The condition that the old trail be closed, this is standard practice when proposing a trail re-route. The MCPC’s current trail system at Lew Mo was based on a master plan from about 2002 which called for a layout with about 7 miles of trail (don’t quote me on that). To achieve this, when new, more sustainable trails were built, several old trails were closed down to keep to the master plan’s original goals (you can see remnants of them here and there especially in the winter when leaf cover is gone). That said, I personally think the acreage at Lew Mo is sufficient to host net new trails. As a result, and as per my prior post, I am working up a proposal for a brand new trail. Achieving this won’t be easy, but it starts by demonstrating renewed commitment to the Lew Mo volunteer effort (we took a hiatus in 2013 to 2014 as the three qualified trail crew leaders (myself being one of them) had too much going on personally and professionally to dedicate time). We demonstrate that commitment by:

a) re-establishing the volunteer base (this has taken time but thanks to a small core of long standing vounteers and @jumpa 's infectious ability to reel in brand new volunteers and show them the ropes, we are in really good shape now)

b) focusing on remedial work first


3) Re: Intention to close trails. Technically yes, but realistically some of the bad sections are a lot of work to remediate by hand, so they’ll be around for a while. My strategy is to focus on a) the re-routes that can be accomplished with modest effort and b) start introducing new trails. Again, all this requires approvals that are not always a guarantee.

Note that with every re-route, we aim to at least double the length of the trail we’re replacing, so net-net the trail system grows organically. The new trail section we built is roughly 3 times longer than the old one. It’s also twistier.

One a related note, when it comes to the trail layout, it's always a team effort. I flag out the proposed route with tape and pins. When we get to the work site, I ask the volunteers to imagine riding sections of the trail and to make recommendations on how it could be tweaked. Some of the twists and turns in the new trail section at Lew Mo were the direct result of on-site input from the volunteers. Same is true of the twisty section we put in on orange a few years ago. I flagged the original design, but the sizeable crew that showed up on work day had a lot of good ideas we incorporated into the end result. All the more incentive for volunteers to show up....you get to have some say in the trail.


4) Re; Next trail date. No worries, I hear you. I’m a Dad too. Much of the schedule of TM dates depends on my own schedule since up until recently I’ve been the only one authorized by the MCPC to lead the volunteer crew. My two other leaders are no longer on the crew due to family obligations, which I agree is far more important than any trail. However, thanks again to @jumpa, he has raised his hand to help me lead the volunteer crew so I am working on getting him officially designated by MCPC. What this means is we may be able to squeeze more trail dates in in any given year and thus get more work done.


5) Re Lawsuits: AMEN brother. I can’t stand it when people don’t take responsibilities for their own actions and feel the need to blame others for their own misfortune. Among the unfortunate results is that the rest of us are impacted by the actions of these few. Entire parks are off limits, or certain trails closed, or no features allowed, etc, all because the landowner (understandably) has to protect itself from financial harm. This same risk exists with rogue trails. Right or wrong, landowners still expect a form of self-policing from the MTB community. If someone builds an illegal jump (which can only be by mountain bikers, unless you count the 2 people in the state that ride mountain boards lol), and then someone gets injured on said jump, all eyes are on MTB'ers..even those that had nothing to do with said rogue features. Most illegal trails too are built by MTB'ers...the giveaway is the trail features they incorporate into said trail...features no horse or hiker would really seek...this hurts us too. It's one step forward, 2 steps back every time.

It’s different, however, when money is involved in the recreation. Take snowboarding for example: I started snowboarding when very few resorts allowed it (due to liability and insurance concerns) and those that did required you to get certified (for a fee no less) before buying a lift ticket. Once the sport caught on and resorts realized that mega $$$$ in revenues were up for grabs, resorts started opening up to boarders everywhere (well, except for the holdouts like Alta, Mad River, etc). Unfortunately, unless you’re talking about bike parks like Whistler, mountain biking is essentially revenue-less for the park systems, so there is nothing to offset the risk of financial loss from lawsuits, legal defense, etc. Preaching to the choir I’m sure, so I’ll stop there.

Let me know if I can answer any more questions.
 
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GJ11

Member
Agreed. All good. I wish all Internet arguments were this civil.

If you have Friday off come out to RV and you can personally craft some of the switchbacks we're putting in. I'll even buy you lunch.
Appreciate the offer. It's very kind of you. I'll have to take a Raincheck.

We should all be able to disagree without being disagreeable.
 

GJ11

Member
what seems to be the most important issues to you? feel free to list all, but
i've re-read, and it grew more nebulous as the thread progressed.
I guess my preference, and I would hope the decision makers are of similar mindset, would be to want to make the new trail in the spirit of the old trail. Arguments (which I totally disagree with) have been presented in support of the new trail. Maybe I'm way off base here but wouldn't you expect the same? If a hypothetical switchback trail is closed for reasons X, Y, and Z, wouldn't you want a replacement switch back trail to be built having similar features to the extent the land could support it?

In this case we got a 'point and shoot' trail closed and replaced by something that doesn't remotely resemble the old trail. The land the new trail was built on could have easily supported something similar to the old trail. I don't buy the whole 'fall line waterfall' argument, and have seen no official data to date to support these arguments. One poster offered to take me out there and march around the trail with an inclinometer, which on its face, is still unofficial. Further, the replacement trail falls woefully short IMO.

Based on the information presented thus far, nobody was 'officially' calling for the old trail to be closed and re-routed. So please don't start hating on me because I AM NOT bashing the volunteers who spent countless hours making the new trail.

when was the last time you were at LM? trail work in this area has been going on since last septemberish (?) - the new route wasn't really noticeable until a couple months ago.
i'm too lazy to look when it was announced here.

I ride LM 8-10 times a month. I saw the area of the new trail being flagged out over the winter but just figured it was an 'add-on' trail. Next thing I know, the greatest stretch of downhill in the park is closed and replaced with this abomination. If there was an announcement thread, I'd love to see it. Better yet, show me the arguments and data that got us to where we are today.
 

icebiker

JORBA: Morris Trails
JORBA.ORG
Italics: @GJ11

I guess my preference, and I would hope the decision makers are of similar mindset, would be to want to make the new trail in the spirit of the old trail.


The “spirit” of the old trail is the problem. Whether you choose to believe the science behind trail building is your prerogative, but the fact is the old section (and a few others in the park) are fall line trails that are not sustainable. If we simply made a new trail in the same image, it would be washed out again in 3-4 years.

If a hypothetical switchback trail is closed for reasons X, Y, and Z, wouldn't you want a replacement switch back trail to be built having similar features to the extent the land could support it?

The old section of trail is not a switchback. It has precisely two left hand bends and one right hand sweeper, most of which are either fall line or steeply pitched. Aditionally, other than a small flat section about 1/3 of the way down, is is all downhill. Water is the enemy here. If it’s too steep and has no reverse grades, water just accelerates down the trail taking layers of soil with it each time.

In this case we got a 'point and shoot' trail closed and replaced by something that doesn't remotely resemble the old trail.

Precisely the objective.

I don't buy the whole 'fall line waterfall' argument, and have seen no official data to date to support these arguments.

Like I said, read the IMBA Trail Solutions book. https://www.imba.com/catalog/book-trail-solutions For the couple of hours I put in over the past few nights crafting polite, constructive, detailed responses to your concerns, you could have read that book cover to cover. Have you actually been trained in trail building like I and my fellow chapter leads have?

Further, the replacement trail falls woefully short IMO.

If what you’re saying is that it falls short of being a point-and-shoot-damn-the-torpedoes-here-I-come-get-out-of-my-way-trail, then I agree. But that wasn’t the point of the new trail. The point of the new trail, like many other well designed ones in the park built over 10 years ago with hardly any erosion, is to flow well and be sustainable.

Next thing I know, the greatest stretch of downhill in the park is closed and replaced with this abomination.


Tell us how you really feel :rolleyes: There are no screaming downhills at Six Mile Run (other than the short gully near the powerlines on the 27 side) but I have yet to hear anyone say they had anything but a ton of fun riding there.

If there was an announcement thread, I'd love to see it.

Not that we are under any obligation to do so, but here you go: http://www.mtbnj.com/forum/threads/lewis-morris-trail-building-is-back.36672/

Better yet, show me the arguments and data that got us to where we are today.

I and several others have already made our case and frankly I have little more time to beat dead horses. I recommend you take the time to understand and apply the science behind trail building. We're going in circles, which is something only our wheels should be doing.
 

Magic

Formerly 1sh0t1b33r
Team MTBNJ Halter's
If a hypothetical switchback trail is closed for reasons X, Y, and Z, wouldn't you want a replacement switch back trail to be built having similar features to the extent the land could support it?
By saying this you just want a 10 second straight shot downhill to be built somewhere else in the park?

There are a few gravel roads you can bomb down in the park. If you want to resemble the turn, smash your rear brake and turn right.

There is also Mountain Creek if you like to go fast downhill for a while.
 

kidzach

Well-Known Member
I'd like to use this "exact thread" to take the time to thank ALL jORBA representatives and chapter leaders for all they do. Obviously it takes some superior "people skills" at times to do all that you do. It would seem the digging is at times the easy part. Again . Thank You.
 

Patrick

Overthinking the draft from the basement already
Staff member
i don't think we can, or should argue with opinion in this case.

preferring the dh over the new section is a totally understandable opinion.
as is how it should have been replaced, or what the planners should be thinking,

Denying trail science, seems like a total, current-day thing to do. That is fine too.
Starting with that, there is nothing that can be said about the process or result
that will make a difference. I can accept that.

pointing out that the schedule of closure was not followed simply supports
the desire to ride the dh. can't argue with that - especially after talking about
all the planning/approvals necessary to get this to happen, then not following the plan.

plenty of good points made by @GJ11 - but most are just personal preference, and opinion.
If we don't listen to opinions, then we can not test our own.
 

Arwen's Mom

Mother of Dragons, Breaker of Chains
with all the "amens" and "brother" and "civil" remarks, I thought this debate was over.
why is this still going?o_Oo_Oo_O

I love downhill, and ride LM quite a bit, and ya know, I cant for the life of me or my bike remember which down hill this person is missing so much. There are way better sections of "downhill" to be enjoyed at LM. If I dont miss it, it didnt exist, right @fidodie ? I only mention him as he has ridden with me enough to know how much I loath climbing and live for even 5 feet of downhill :p
 

MissJR

not in the mood for your shenanigans
Team MTBNJ Halter's
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icebiker

JORBA: Morris Trails
JORBA.ORG
@fidodie, just to clarify when you say "then not following the plan" that was the work of unkown others that were not part of the plan.

Agree listening to opinions is important. As the saying goes, everyone has one...even me lol.

However listening is a two way street, and opinion needs to also be balanced with data/facts, which we have tried to articulate to little avail it seems.

@GJ11, if you want data, you may not realize it but it's right under your tires. You say that you've been riding Lew Mo for 10 years. As I mentioned this old section was built around 2006. So you would have been riding this trail since it was built. I also mentioned it was soft dirt in the beginning. As you can see now, there a gazillion significantly exposed roots in the upper section, siltation in the middle section, and small loose stones and washed out areas in the steepest section. The data is right there, but you may not have realized it since the degradation takes place over time.

In contrast, the trail that skirts the southern border of the campground is in the exact same condition it was when it was built about a year or two after 2006 because it was done right.
 
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