Winter Trail Abuse.

Mountain Bike Mike

Well-Known Member
You are not wrong, but if you saw the staffing cuts they’ve had in the last decade you would be surprised.

They don’t have much man power and they aren’t going to go around opening and closing the lot lots daily. It’s a tough spot.

When these guys tour the park and see nearly every inch of the place rutted up by mtn Bikes, the most obvious thing (to some people) is to simply ban mtn bikes outright.

He moves that the Nassau crew has made to close the trails is the right one, but even then I’m sure there are those who ignore it.
@stb222
 

one piece crank

Well-Known Member
Question = Enforcement, both ownership of, and willingness to?

The NOX "Trail Closed" signs are great, and notice they are printed by the PA Dept of Conservation and Natural Resources. Collectively, we responsible riders bear the brunt for irresponsible trail damage because we care and we engage the offended Park officials. But ultimately some type of official enforcement has to take place to bolster our efforts to educate - sort of a double edged sword to get the word out.
 

Patrick

Overthinking the draft from the basement already
Staff member
i'd bet the complaints are coming from the canal side. The field, Iron, and concrete bridge areas.
Easy to park and assess, and some of the most sensitive places. The park people are not walking the twisties, or 27side red.

Closing the canal and jaques trailheads, and putting a red light at the middlebush crossing might be the biggest gain for smallest work.

Easiest to do with digital signage, even appropriate daily messages like "MTBikers must be off trails by 8:30am"
might make a difference. A couple people, and some smart weather data scraping might help automate the process.

can't close the lots - the hunters, and others should have the access they deserve.

Now, what is the penalty for trail damage? not mountain biking specific, and how to enforce it? Window fliers on cars with bike racks
announcing future enforcement actions? Taking plate numbers, and looking for repeat offenders? (might not work, people road ride out of the lots too)

Are the park rangers the same as park police? I doubt the rangers i've met want to be that adversarial to the point of giving out tickets,
but they would be willing to explain the damage being done.

It is such a popular park, you'd think that $$ for a pilot program would be available.
---

And yes, people go right by those signs at Nox, but do they do it when it is muddy?
 

Juggernaut

Master of the Metaphor
i'd bet the complaints are coming from the canal side. The field, Iron, and concrete bridge areas.
Easy to park and assess, and some of the most sensitive places. The park people are not walking the twisties, or 27side red.

Closing the canal and jaques trailheads, and putting a red light at the middlebush crossing might be the biggest gain for smallest work.

Easiest to do with digital signage, even appropriate daily messages like "MTBikers must be off trails by 8:30am"
might make a difference. A couple people, and some smart weather data scraping might help automate the process.

can't close the lots - the hunters, and others should have the access they deserve.

Now, what is the penalty for trail damage? not mountain biking specific, and how to enforce it? Window fliers on cars with bike racks
announcing future enforcement actions? Taking plate numbers, and looking for repeat offenders?

Are the park rangers the same as park police? I doubt the rangers i've met want to be that adversarial to the point of giving out tickets,
but they would be willing to explain the damage being done.

It is such a popular park, you'd think that $$ for a pilot program would be available.
---

And yes, people go right by those signs at Nox, but do they do it when it is muddy?

I park there in the wet all the time and ride the road and towpath instead. Im not alone in this so not all the parked vehicle owners are plunderers. :)

But, I’m more than happy enough to park elsewhere (say colonial park) if it means keeping people off 6mile in the wet.
 

Patrick

Overthinking the draft from the basement already
Staff member
I park there in the wet all the time and ride the road and towpath instead. Im not alone in this so not all the vehicles are plunderers. :)

But, I’m more than happy enough to park elsewhere (say colonial park) if it means keeping people off 6mile in the wet.

Good point.
i hit post, and realized that...went back and edited.

The more i think about it, the more on-board i am with park police handing out warnings every saturday and sunday for a month to people who come off the trails when it is muddy, and who tell the people pulling in that their damage is a ticketable offence. Word would get out.

As an aside, i can't find any rule in the parks' guides that specify 'damage to trails' specifically. so is it actionable?
 

stb222

Love Drunk
Jerk Squad
I am not really sure what point this proves.

Very limited ranger presence, canal lot (probably need one sign at the roller field entrance and one where it enters the woods for people who bypass the field), Blackwells Mills lot, jaques lane, middlebush crossing and 27 lot. Also, numerous places people can park outside the park and ride in. When it comes down to it, putting up a sign is easy. Each day, someone has to make a call on trail conditions and change at least 5 signs. So a ranger or maintenance guy needs to potentially do that daily. It seems like a minor thing, but has a real impact on time and resources.

Good point.
i hit post, and realized that...went back and edited.

The more i think about it, the more on-board i am with park police handing out warnings every saturday and sunday for a month to people who come off the trails when it is muddy, and who tell the people pulling in that their damage is a ticketable offence. Word would get out.

As an aside, i can't find any rule in the parks' guides that specify 'damage to trails' specifically. so is it actionable?

But like any ticketing program, it escalates and then scales back. Never ending cycle. And also, time and resources for the park police.
 

one piece crank

Well-Known Member
The more i think about it, the more on-board i am with park police handing out warnings...

That's the only way this can get off the ground without @jdog living there.

As an aside, i can't find any rule in the parks' guides that specify 'damage to trails' specifically. so is it actionable?

If the official sign says "Trails Closed", then the trails are closed. Have at it...
 
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Patrick

Overthinking the draft from the basement already
Staff member
So they ban mt biking, then don't write tickets for doing it, and now they have the damage and illegal mt biking.

That isn't a solution either.

Solutions require resources. Time, $$, people. No progress will be made without it. even just blue-sky thinking might trigger a couple key
points that @jdog or others can take to the park staff/managers to get them talking, and know that we are working it.

The mt biking community supports ticketing those who are doing damage to the trails.

Fake tickets: If you rode today, you owe 5 hours of trail maintenance, please sign up at.......

could come up with quite a few ideas from totally ridiculous, to just a little less than ridiculous. but it is a start, which is what i'm good at.
who are the finishers?
 

stb222

Love Drunk
Jerk Squad
points that @jdog
Fake tickets: If you rode today, you owe 5 hours of trail maintenance, please sign up at.......
[/QUOTE]
Lol, good luck with that one.
 

Jmann

Never gonna let you down.
Just spitballing here, but what about a Strava segment that somehow could be initialized when conditions warrant, with a title inferring that the trails are too wet to be ridden, please do not ride. Maybe a short segment that starts at each lot. I have zero idea if it’s possible to enable and disable a segment regularly, but it would force some people to see the message, albeit in a debatably passive aggressive way (and after they’ve obviously ridden that day).
 

Patrick

Overthinking the draft from the basement already
Staff member
Just spitballing here, but what about a Strava segment that somehow could be initialized when conditions warrant, with a title inferring that the trails are too wet to be ridden, please do not ride. Maybe a short segment that starts at each lot. I have zero idea if it’s possible to enable and disable a segment regularly, but it would force some people to see the message, albeit in a debatably passive aggressive way (and after they’ve obviously ridden that day).

who wants to experiment with changing segments from public to private and back?
this would be a good strava labs initiative.
 

jpn

Active Member
Well, we have a governor who shuts the govt down every time it flurries, why can't he just shut the trails down when it's muddy?
 

Mountain Bike Mike

Well-Known Member
side texting @stb222 about this...

regarding enforcement and ticketing..., No one is going to ticket people for riding "closed" trails... No one is touching that one.

installing more signage, closing lots, chains across main trail heads are all ways to educate and spread awareness. Dudes who usually ride mud will show up and see all that and at least they'll see. Right now, there is nothing physically in place to educate those people.

its not like six mile has gone without expensive enhancements in the passed 5 years... Maybe scrape some of that budget for some physical awareness items.
 

Mountain Bike Mike

Well-Known Member
Trail closed.jpg
 

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