Why is H2H hurting when MASS is doing well?

[Mtbdog]

I don't know about the budget end of it but there was only about a dozen of us on Saturday setup. Admittingly they had a ton of material,metal spikes,pvc pipe, wood stakes,stepins and such. I've offered up to help but got no response, I'd like to help out if I could here in H2H ☺

 

[xc62701]

How about

unlees you’re like me and have never flatted in a race

Are you trying to jinx yourself?

 

[mattybfat]

Nobody is talking about the white elephant in the room here. 25 minutes away from the allamuchy race is Glenn park enduro race that has 300 pre regs.

I been preaching for about four years this is the grass roots movement in mountain biking. If you ask me mtb riders from the early days pushed the limits of off road racing as far as the bikes could handle. I raced the early days of dh on rigid bikes and as soon as the bikes became fully suspended the courses changed. To me xc which I also raced was more of a roadie sport for bored roadies. Now cross has that support. I grew up mtbing always it wasn't till I started racing xc that I bought a road bike.

Being out west the last couple years you can understand why mtb has moved to bigger hit bikes and bigger features. Hell these bikes are like motos we used to have when we were kids but even better. Cleaning shit that scares the poop out you excites me and I am sure it's why there's a shift in the mtbing racing scene.

 

[jShort]

Nobody is talking about the white elephant in the room here. 25 minutes away from the allamuchy race is Glenn park enduro race that has 300 pre regs.

I been preaching for about four years this is the grass roots movement in mountain biking. If you ask me mtb riders from the early days pushed the limits of off road racing as far as the bikes could handle. I raced the early days of dh on rigid bikes and as soon as the bikes became fully suspended the courses changed. To me xc which I also raced was more of a roadie sport for bored roadies. Now cross has that support. I grew up mtbing always it wasn't till I started racing xc that I bought a road bike.

Being out west the last couple years you can understand why mtb has moved to bigger hit bikes and bigger features. Hell these bikes are like motos we used to have when we were kids but even better. Cleaning shit that scares the poop out you excites me and I am sure it's why there's a shift in the mtbing racing scene.

Between the Enduro, Fair hill, and the Fat tire classic in CT (369 reg at the moment, and definitely going up), Mooch #s are going to hurt. It's a rough weekend.

 

[Steve Vai]

unlees you’re like me and have never flatted in a race

Guess who's walking out of Mooch with bicycle parts in both hands? Better find a virgin and offer them to the Volcano Gods.

 

[Norm]

Between the Enduro, Fair hill, and the Fat tire classic in CT (369 reg at the moment, and definitely going up), Mooch #s are going to hurt. It's a rough weekend.

I think having a NICA race on this day hurts us more. Some evidence actually supports this contention.

I'm not saying we should scrap NICA. Just to be clear. I am all for what they have doing. And like us, they have limited dates to work with. Plus here's a reality to ponder. Stats from BikeReg for the Mooch race:

Compare to Short Track, where we have targeted kids:

Doesn't take a genius to see that no matter which was you slice it, the 25-40 demographic is dead. Thank god for those old men who put NICA together. Because otherwise our sport was going to suffer a slow death in the years to come.

 

[Ian F]

I'd agree we aren't really hurting for event choices in the area. I could do some sort of race every weekend from May through Sept if I wanted to. But for better or worse, I have other interests in addition to biking.

 

[Mountain Bike Mike]

I think having a NICA race on this day hurts us more. Some evidence actually supports this contention.

I'm not saying we should scrap NICA. Just to be clear. I am all for what they have doing. And like us, they have limited dates to work with. Plus here's a reality to ponder. Stats from BikeReg for the Mooch race:

View attachment 67498

Compare to Short Track, where we have targeted kids:

View attachment 67499

Doesn't take a genius to see that no matter which was you slice it, the 25-40 demographic is dead. Thank god for those old men who put NICA together. Because otherwise our sport was going to suffer a slow death in the years to come.

Thanks for this... I was riding this morning and imagined what it would be like to join forces and hold the NICA race and Mooch madness on the same day at the same venue together.... Where the NICA course is a subcourse within Mooch Madness course. Now before everyone gets all anti this idea.... I'm sure the thread will light up with negatives and cons to doing it this way... BUT just for a moment picture it.... what the start / finish and staging + awards ceremony would be like if combined...


OK - back to reality... Whoops there goes gravity...

 

[Norm]

Thanks for this... I was riding this morning and imagined what it would be like to join forces and hold the NICA race and Mooch madness on the same day at the same venue together.... Where the NICA course is a subcourse within Mooch Madness course. Now before everyone gets all anti this idea.... I'm sure the thread will light up with negatives and cons to doing it this way... BUT just for a moment picture it.... what the start / finish and staging + awards ceremony would be like if combined...

Ok Marshall.

Jason & Ken actually rode the ST loop last year trying to assess what it would take to make the course NICA-friendly. We're having @KenS on the podcast the week after next. I'll see if this is something that would be possible. They both thought the ST could be made to work. We'll see.

I will say this - parking at Mooch would be a bear for this.

 

[Mountain Bike Mike]

Ok Marshall.

Jason & Ken actually rode the ST loop last year trying to assess what it would take to make the course NICA-friendly. We're having @KenS on the podcast the week after next. I'll see if this is something that would be possible. They both thought the ST could be made to work. We'll see.

I will say this - parking at Mooch would be a bear for this.

Marshall - lots of synergies in that reference

Very cool... In talking with Ken about moving NICA courses in the direction of how our regular courses are, Ken seemed aware and open to it but it will take a little longer for the league to mature to a point where it can be that way. He mentioned other mature states like Virginia that are doing this right now because they've been at it for so long. I hope he touches on that in the podcast.

If you look at last year and even this year's venues,.,. the Gloucester race is exactly that... a subset of the Summer Sizzler course and the feedback from the kids was very positive. Would make sense to join those efforts and the issue is Sizzler runs outside the NICA season...

 

[Fat Trout]

Nobody is talking about the white elephant in the room here. 25 minutes away from the allamuchy race is Glenn park enduro race that has 300 pre regs.

I been preaching for about four years this is the grass roots movement in mountain biking. If you ask me mtb riders from the early days pushed the limits of off road racing as far as the bikes could handle. I raced the early days of dh on rigid bikes and as soon as the bikes became fully suspended the courses changed. To me xc which I also raced was more of a roadie sport for bored roadies. Now cross has that support. I grew up mtbing always it wasn't till I started racing xc that I bought a road bike.

Being out west the last couple years you can understand why mtb has moved to bigger hit bikes and bigger features. Hell these bikes are like motos we used to have when we were kids but even better. Cleaning shit that scares the poop out you excites me and I am sure it's why there's a shift in the mtbing racing scene.

Enduro style riding seems like its coming on the way snowboarding showed up. Probably drawing what exists of the younger crowd too. Perhaps mix a timed Enduro or optional Enduro segment into a standard race and promote it.

 

[Mountain Bike Mike]

Nobody is talking about the white elephant in the room here. 25 minutes away from the allamuchy race is Glenn park enduro race that has 300 pre regs.

I been preaching for about four years this is the grass roots movement in mountain biking. If you ask me mtb riders from the early days pushed the limits of off road racing as far as the bikes could handle. I raced the early days of dh on rigid bikes and as soon as the bikes became fully suspended the courses changed. To me xc which I also raced was more of a roadie sport for bored roadies. Now cross has that support. I grew up mtbing always it wasn't till I started racing xc that I bought a road bike.

Being out west the last couple years you can understand why mtb has moved to bigger hit bikes and bigger features. Hell these bikes are like motos we used to have when we were kids but even better. Cleaning shit that scares the poop out you excites me and I am sure it's why there's a shift in the mtbing racing scene.

Man... I have a half a dozen kids on the NICA team that would LOVE to race Enduro and Creek's Thursday night series... In fact, there is a good chance they will once NICA season is over. I truly believe and am ok with saying this... NICA is holding those kids back and I'd like to steer them towards those other genres because they will enjoy it more, do well stick with it...

I'm hoping to also pull some kids toward BMX in the summer and fall. NICA is pulling kids out and on to bikes and as we watch and help them progress, you can see how their personalities and ride styles grow towards a specific genre.

 

[mattybfat]

Ok Marshall.

Jason & Ken actually rode the ST loop last year trying to assess what it would take to make the course NICA-friendly. We're having @KenS on the podcast the week after next. I'll see if this is something that would be possible. They both thought the ST could be made to work. We'll see.

I will say this - parking at Mooch would be a bear for this.

I brought jason and Ken and the national reps to mooch before the inaugural year and deemed it too challenging ie. Too Rocky...

 

[Mountain Bike Mike]

I brought jason and Ken and the national reps to mooch before the inaugural year and deemed it too challenging ie. Too Rocky...

"National" - West coast XC minded.... Need a little more East coast influence....

 

[Norm]

I brought jason and Ken and the national reps to mooch before the inaugural year and deemed it too challenging ie. Too Rocky...

True, but that was before we added the full Lake Loop. If we had to sanitize it for kids, we can do that. I would love to make this happen, even though I know it would be a big task.

 

[Pearl]

To me xc which I also raced was more of a roadie sport for bored roadies. Now cross has that support. I grew up mtbing always it wasn't till I started racing xc that I bought a road bike.

you may be on to something hear cotton

 

[JDurk]

Doesn't take a genius to see that no matter which was you slice it, the 25-40 demographic is dead. Thank god for those old men who put NICA together. Because otherwise our sport was going to suffer a slow death in the years to come.

Noticed this last year at races of the MASS series. Just did a quick look at results from all 11 XC races last year. Cat1 is 19-39 age range, where Cat2 and Cat3 have 19-29 and 30-39.

There's a significant difference in the amount of participants in 19-29 vs 30-39 in both Cat2 and Cat3. Cat3 19-29 only made double digit racers once. 2 races with 0 racers and 2 races with just 1 racer. For most races in both Cat2 and Cat3, participants in 30-39 doubled the amount of 19-29. Here's a breakdown of total season participants, with a few notable highs and lows.
Cat1 19-39 = 111 (19 at Bear Creek, 1 at Big Elk)
Cat2 19-29 = 97 (19 at Fair Hill, 3 at Challenger and Finals)
Cat2 30-39 = 221 (38 at Fair Hill, 11 at French Creek)
Cat3 19-29 = 46 (10 at Fair Hill, 0 at Bear Creek and Guy's Neshaminy, 1 at Sizzler and Finals)
Cat3 30-39 = 108 (20 at Fair Hill, 2 at Finals)

Hopefully NICA participants help fill the classes in the future.

 

[pooriggy]

 

[Mountain Bike Mike]

True, but that was before we added the full Lake Loop. If we had to sanitize it for kids, we can do that. I would love to make this happen, even though I know it would be a big task.

Think about this for a moment.... NICA NJ in the first couple years takes the National template / criteria... Certain amount of double track, fire road, single track.... and that is awesome to get the program going and introduce NJ kids to riding.... the courses are an into to what our region has to offer. What happens when these kids venture out past the NICA course and ride with their parents and friends at other places around the state... Did we prepare them enough to be able to ride the stuff that NJ has? Probably not and they will eventually end up out there and could be at risk.

Introducing more of our region's type of trails in to the NICA NJ program will be a way to introduce the kids to the rocks and the reality of what mountain biking is in our state and we do it in a supervised controlled fashion with trained coaches and parents. That way, we know when they leave and venture out on their own, we did our best to equip them with the things they need to have fun and stay safe.

I'm all for mitigating risk and keeping kids safe and I am also for letting kids test their boundaries and see what their capable of.... We all know riding rocks is mountain biking in NJ and many other states - let the kids ride em.

 

[MadisonDan]

I brought jason and Ken and the national reps to mooch before the inaugural year and deemed it too challenging ie. Too Rocky...

Yeah, I think it's evolving though. Remember, there are a fair amount of kids who have never riden anywhere but their driveway or a sidewalk. Also, I think the first year was overly cautious. If they can race at LewMo, the ST course should be fair game.. I hope this changes. A fall NICA season would change participation as well.