Why is H2H hurting when MASS is doing well?

mattsrabbit

Member
I wonder if the popularity of Cyclocross isn't a factor in the fast and MASS vs. Techie NJ. I'm a cross racer first and foremost with eyes on XC for fun and improving my handling for CX, plus I hate road racing and prefer to not get hurt. All of that makes the MASS courses sound really appealing to me. That said, i'm doing Mooch because it's a little closer to the city and factoring in the struggles of H2H, which i'd hate to go away. So support the races that support what you love.
 

Team Town Cycle

Well-Known Member
Surprisingly many NiCA kids can ride most of the race courses offerred now without having to graduate from NICA... no need to wait..
And a lot of them do, absolutely. I think some of the draw for the NICA kids is the team aspect - a lot of the kids are not into your traditional "ball and stick" sports, where you generally get the team experience. This is a nice way for them to have that experience, and it's great to see them all hanging out together and supporting and cheering on each other.
 

Patrick

Overthinking the draft from the basement already
Staff member
And a lot of them do, absolutely. I think some of the draw for the NICA kids is the team aspect - a lot of the kids are not into your traditional "ball and stick" sports, where you generally get the team experience. This is a nice way for them to have that experience, and it's great to see them all hanging out together and supporting and cheering on each other.

this is a good point - nobody is sitting on the bench, nobody is buried in right field, and it isn't 1-on-1 (tennis).
it also isn't a game of failure (golf, batting a ball) and it has less to do with pure physical genetic gift like height (basketball)
barriers to entry are small - try to break into an established travel baseball team, even if better than half the players.

so why aren't more adults starting - i think plenty ride rail trails. Then someone sends them a red bull video, and they won't go
to 6MR. or they go over the bars because they have the wrong size bike, and nobody ever said unweight the front wheel (vs jerking it up)

anyway, back to race participation - and I don't think it is a negative discussion @David Taylor ... Utah's point is you may be taking the MASS series most popular
race, and applying that over all their races.

i don't think there is 1 question of why? I think it is many -
why aren't cat 1 people showing?
Why aren't cat 2 people showing?
is cat 3 getting an influx of new racers, are they moving to cat 2 the next year?
why aren't the specialty classes showing? SS FAT Endurance
Where are all the female athletes?
are the age groups correct? (think i may have discussed this with Norm, and he explained the pre-season planning thoughts)

we'll need to ask the people that aren't here - that is the only way to find out for sure. lots of good hypothesis in here. but no real cause.
 

Mountain Bike Mike

Well-Known Member
Anyone have the Short track #1 reg stats? From previous years and this year?

The “kids race free” option brought a ton of NICA kids... what was the % increase in participants from previous years compared to this years?

Those answer setup a point I’m trying to make... there is an army of kids that would love to race h2h and mass races... If promoters open up their registration like mtbnj did... doesn’t necessarily have to be free..and maybe adjust come of their youth categories and maybe some slight alterations to a cat three / kids loop. the local races would see a significant increase in registration / participants.

NICA charges 35-45 for a kid to race a NICA race... do the math on that...

I read in this forum where promoters barely break even with today’s reg numbers...

Making your races more appealing to kids with lower or comparable rwg fees with a challenging for them course, your reg nimbers go up... but all that is worthless if NICA has a race the se day as your race.
 

qclabrat

Well-Known Member
There's just 3 series competing against each other for a dwindling race crowd. People who used to race no longer do for whatever reason and there's no new folks coming in. I'd imagine once the NICA kids come of age they'll be looking to bump into Mass or H2H and numbers will go up.
what's the health of road races compared to mtb? Is it just an overall saturation cycle which comes with some sports (golf, tennis, etc.). Remember when tee and court times were impossible to get?
I know the triathlons peaked 10 years ago and now really hurting as well. There's so many choices for races/activities and for myself I spend most of my weekends with my kids or visiting my parents. I'm lucky to sneak in a ride or two each week.
http://www.triathlete.com/2017/03/lifestyle/behind-usat-ironmans-efforts-grow-sport_299133
 

ryderX

Well-Known Member
This discussion or a variant of it has been going on for the last 28 years that I’ve been racing bikes. We’ve done surveys, crunched numbers, changed fees, shortened lap distances, increased payouts, combined classes, added more disciplines, brought in food trucks, went with electronic timing, even hired strippers and the end result was always the same- dwindling participation. The only thing we’ve been able to agree on is that there in no one panacea that solves every former racers reason why they don’t race any longer. I myself just grew tired of the same courses year after year. When I discovered the MASS series my love for racing returned. The MASS courses were longer, less crowded, more challenging, offered deeper fields of competition.
All A Muchy in 2019 ?
 

graveyardman67

Well-Known Member
Team MTBNJ Halter's
I always seem to remember the Spring Cleaning race as one of the first/second H2H races; typically 1st weekend in May. Now there would have been 4 races prior to May 12. For me, it seems like these early in the year races crept up. The weather difference between Ringwood and Newark, DE has been huge the last 2 months. Pounded with snow while they have had hardly any. So I think the weather has played a part.

Second, there seem to be so many more options as far racing goes. The H2H focus is on cross country. Yes, we have the endurance cat now but this is new in the last couple years. The MASS endurance series has been a mainstay for many years and an attraction in itself. I also think a fair amount of people have been attracted to the Enduro scene. Obviously, you can be everything to everyone, but there is definitely some competition for peoples time.

For a lot of people, time is an issue. I was planning on the ESC Enduro at Glen Park this weekend. But between kids sports and other obligations, I can't blow the entire day. For a sub 2 hour races if I could get in, race and get out home within 6 hours that would be great. One reason I always like racing Crits was that it wasn't a whole day commitment.
 

Fat Trout

Well-Known Member
Other than a few scattered Endurance races I'm a non racer. I was turned off by the scene a long time ago. I always found the race scene kind of intimidating and with other activities that I do I didn't need the grief when I'd rather ride for fun. As much as I found it intriguing to want to try the well thought out courses and locations I didn't want to pay full price to have a mob try to race past me, crash in front of me, race past me....repeat. I always thought these scenes would benefit from attracting outliers with a no pressure category with an official start, no official finish and significantly lower cost. They might come back and start trying official categories. It seems like short track thing gave out that kind of give it a try vibe so credit there for at least making me think that. I think the NICA thing is pretty cool too and would have liked that back in my day.
 

jeffstick

JORBA: Waywayanda
JORBA.ORG
Ahh the good old days of kicking off the racing season at the Spring Cleaning those were the high number days for the H2H Series. The series consisted of 8 races that ran into the first or second weekend of October. You had a chance to do other things throughout the year and space out your mountain bike racing. No races in August except for the Darkhorse 40 locally and then everyone was looking to get after it again at places like Tymor, Jungle and Ringwood in September and October. Granted, Tymor never attracted huge numbers but that's probably because of the distance to the park, but it was still a great race. Now it's start in March, finish by the first weekend in August which means weekends on the schedule like this coming weekend where you have Allamuchy, Fair Hill and Fat tire Classic in CT along with a NICA race. I know from March til August is the same time frame as May through October but it also gave people more time to get in shape for racing. I don't want to hear the Cross argument for September or October because cross encroached on the MTB race season. There really weren't any cross races until later October or November and cross was something you did as an extension of either your MTB or road season to maintain fitness before winter.

It's not just an H2H issue but an issue of everyone wanting on the calendar at the same time and only so many racers to go around. Something's gotta give so either promoters need to chance a fall race again like we are with the Bearscat or just budget your race to know you will only have 150-200 people show up and those that do show up should just be happy you have a local series to race and support it.
 

Superfly100guy

Well-Known Member
There's just 3 series competing against each other for a dwindling race crowd. People who used to race no longer do for whatever reason and there's no new folks coming in. I'd imagine once the NICA kids come of age they'll be looking to bump into Mass or H2H and numbers will go up.

Agreed

I have asked many people why they are not racing and the top 3 answers are

My kids have spring soccer, track and lacrosse til june
I've not ridden my MTB this year so I'll do the later races
I'd rather just go ride

For me personally its kids sports on Sunday morn. With that said I will try to do the full NJBA CX series where I have 4 options of start times and Saturday/Sunday options.
 

Mountain Bike Mike

Well-Known Member
Ahh the good old days of kicking off the racing season at the Spring Cleaning those were the high number days for the H2H Series. The series consisted of 8 races that ran into the first or second weekend of October. You had a chance to do other things throughout the year and space out your mountain bike racing. No races in August except for the Darkhorse 40 locally and then everyone was looking to get after it again at places like Tymor, Jungle and Ringwood in September and October. Granted, Tymor never attracted huge numbers but that's probably because of the distance to the park, but it was still a great race. Now it's start in March, finish by the first weekend in August which means weekends on the schedule like this coming weekend where you have Allamuchy, Fair Hill and Fat tire Classic in CT along with a NICA race. I know from March til August is the same time frame as May through October but it also gave people more time to get in shape for racing. I don't want to hear the Cross argument for September or October because cross encroached on the MTB race season. There really weren't any cross races until later October or November and cross was something you did as an extension of either your MTB or road season to maintain fitness before winter.

It's not just an H2H issue but an issue of everyone wanting on the calendar at the same time and only so many racers to go around. Something's gotta give so either promoters need to chance a fall race again like we are with the Bearscat or just budget your race to know you will only have 150-200 people show up and those that do show up should just be happy you have a local series to race and support it.

Nice
 

Norm

Mayor McCheese
Team MTBNJ Halter's
I remember when Fat Marc down south used to try to align all of the CX calendars together. This is when we were still in the CX promotion game. He literally lined up the VA series (super 8 or whatever), MAC, NJ, and PA. he laid them all out on a spreadsheet and we worked together as best we could to keep conflicts as far apart as possible. While lining up 4 series is a hard thing to do, it's easy to say that Craigmeur and a DC race really won't have a conflict. Keep in mind this was something like 30-40 races over the fall. It was a hell of an effort.

Then 1 year one of the bigger promoters changed his date at the last second and f*cked a few other local race promoters over, and the effort was abandoned from that point on. The big race didn't need to give a crap. I remember a certain Philly promoter absolutely crucifying that guy in some exchanges we had.
 

ryderX

Well-Known Member
I’m one of the folks who fell off of the race scene a few years back. I pretty much gave up riding and started trail running 2 years ago when my son turned 13. I quickly found it was nearly impossible to stay fit and competitive on the bike while chauffeuring him between band practice, karate, baseball and robotics. The time spent waiting for him between car trips was ideal for doing trail runs. I also found that running was pretty damn addictive and when you throw in 28 years of cycling fitness and strong sense of competitiveness it became an all consuming monster. This year I’m making a point to spend more time on the MTB. (If the weather ever cooperates). I will be racing Allamuchy on Sunday in the 55+ class.
 

jeffstick

JORBA: Waywayanda
JORBA.ORG
I’m one of the folks who fell off of the race scene a few years back. I pretty much gave up riding and started trail running 2 years ago when my son turned 13. I quickly found it was nearly impossible to stay fit and competitive on the bike while chauffeuring him between band practice, karate, baseball and robotics. The time spent waiting for him between car trips was ideal for doing trail runs. I also found that running was pretty damn addictive and when you throw in 28 years of cycling fitness and strong sense of competitiveness it became an all consuming monster. This year I’m making a point to spend more time on the MTB. (If the weather ever cooperates). I will be racing Allamuchy on Sunday in the 55+ class.

55+ damn you are getting old lol
 

UtahJoe

Team Workhorse
Team MTBNJ Halter's
@David Taylor its all good and I enjoy the discussion and creative ideas, I was just noting your two examples and apples and oranges.

I’m one of the folks who fell off of the race scene a few years back. I pretty much gave up riding and started trail running 2 years ago when my son turned 13. I quickly found it was nearly impossible to stay fit and competitive on the bike while chauffeuring him between band practice, karate, baseball and robotics. The time spent waiting for him between car trips was ideal for doing trail runs. I also found that running was pretty damn addictive and when you throw in 28 years of cycling fitness and strong sense of competitiveness it became an all consuming monster. This year I’m making a point to spend more time on the MTB. (If the weather ever cooperates). I will be racing Allamuchy on Sunday in the 55+ class.
We hope to see you out there!

You did remind me of how I would like to one day include a trail run with a bike race and maybe get some cross pollination happening.
 

Patrick

Overthinking the draft from the basement already
Staff member
@David Taylor its all good and I enjoy the discussion and creative ideas, I was just noting your two examples and apples and oranges.


We hope to see you out there!

You did remind me of how I would like to one day include a trail run with a bike race and maybe get some cross pollination happening.

A race during a mtb festival might be interesting...non-racers would see they could compete in the beginner and sport class, and maybe become inspired to do so..
Then add in trail run and maybe a swim :eek: - ok kayak. Ala xterra Dave. @MtnRider
 
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