Why is H2H hurting when MASS is doing well?

#1
What REALLY needs to be done? Less than 20 registered for Mooch and almost 200 for Fair Hill. Hop Brook was hoppin too. I’ll leave my thoughts to the side for now. Please, if you are a lurker, once in a while poster etc just throw your thoughts out here. If I didn’t like certain people that put a huge effort into the local Jersey scene I’d probably be doing Fair Hill as well.
 
#2
I used to race back in the day, not so much recently because my kid’s athletic events take priority on Sunday's. My days of being a great athlete are long gone, but they have a legit shot. Couple of Jersey-centric observations that may or may not be related (I don't know shit about the Mass series):
  • “Back in the day” the courses were more technical, a lot less fire-road. It wasn’t necessarily the fittest person who won (me being a prime example), but the most well rounded. I pre-rode the Ringwood course for Cat1/2, way too much fire road.
  • More endure-type races, I think this is more representative of how people ride, or aspire to ride today. I understand there are logistical/promotion issues, but between Ringwood, Mooch, and Creek you have some potential venues.
  • Some races on Saturdays. Again, understand the logistical/promotion issues, but I’m willing to bet there are more than a few “old-timers” like me who are tied up on Sundays with their kid’s events who would show up for a Saturday race.
 

pearl

THIS CHANGES EVERYTHING
Team MTBNJ Halter's
#4
What REALLY needs to be done?
Ask the people who are racing Fair Hill instead of Allamuchy: "Why they are you racing Fair Hill instead of Allamuchy?"

guessing this is the majority of the answers:
Roadies/Newbies = "course is too techy" Fair Hill is pretty fast and flowy while Mooch is way more challenging.
PA/DE/VA/MD Residents = "too far" - Hard to justify, but a quick skim of who's registered and I see a ton of people from PA,DE,MD
Really fast people = "payout is 10 deep for open men and women, tryna get paid" first place is $300? I've never won an open race but I can't imagine the H2H race has that payout for open. *UPDATE, H2H is exactly 50% less all around and 50% less places (MASS is 10 deep while H2H is 5 for open)

Currently 18 NJ residents are racing Fair Hill. No Cat 1 racers, mostly Cat 2 (Four Cat 2 women!). All the towns SOUND like south jersey towns too.
We need @David Taylor , Eyewitness News, to interview them all. Maybe they are on the board?
 
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Robin

Well-Known Member
#5
I agree with @pearl post - who by the way I keep thinking is @stb222 .

Check numbers for more "technical" MASS races - like Bear Creek and French Creek. I can't speak for all the classes, but when I raced those, numbers were down. Fair Hill and Iron Hill tend to draw those who prefer flowy/less tech.

and for Open/Cat 1 women, I got a pay out even at 8th place...
 

jShort

El gran perdedor
Team MTBNJ Halter's
#8
I would add mass races don't need a license, from people I've talked to on group rides a lot of them are tried of paying for nothing.


I'm not disagreeing that usac turns some off, just pointing out that the reg is cheaper for the H2H race. 41 vs 35.
 

fidodie

Well-Known Member
Staff member
#9
I would add mass races don't need a license, from people I've talked to on group rides a lot of them are tried of paying for nothing.
does this make one race more appealing than another? $15 (or whatever) vs hours of driving?

I think this year has much to do with the weather. 1 or no races in yet, poor outdoor training conditions.
Not interested in racing in slop - hence late sign-up only if it is dry.

has anyone ever tried paid advertising in social media to attract the more casual bike crowd?
What about multi-language outreach (i'm stretching here)
Group rate?

for me, i'm not sure which race i'll do yet. but plan on being there - bare leg too.
 
#10
I like both series... I wish NICA, MASS and H2H promoters would collectively come up with a schedule that would compliment each series rather than steal racers away from each other. This includes contigency dates - easier said than done and I can only imagine what a pain in the ass figuring all that out would be.

On my way home from last weekend’s NICA race, I was thinking how Team Town Cycle / Ringwood race would’ve had more kid racers show up which would help them and that series. Instead, 450+ kids and some of their racer parents couldn’t go due to NICA commitments. It was strange to see Dillon and his Mom helping / coaching with the NICA race while their own race was happening.

There are differences between the two race formats...

MASS XC races are longer with more climbs per laps. For Cat 1, 20 miles averages over three laps with 3 major climbs per lap - for race venues with climbing... usually the field average finish time is roughly 2 hours.

H2H are shorter between 1:30 a 1:45.

Both series venues include great variety and are unique so I can’t say anyone is better than the other. My personal preferance is all I can speak to... Ramseys is my all time favorite, followed by French Creek, Mooch... I loved Chainstrecher until it moved to the NY state series... I could still race it regardless of series....

I do prefer MASS categories over H2H’s new category format... Having raced CAT 1 19-39 in my late 30s, I was looking forward to turning 40 and racing with peers and getting away from racing kids young enough to be my son. There is a significant fitness difference between a 20 year old Cat 1 racer and a 35 year old - for so many reasons...

When I look at my race schedule, I have all H2H, MASS and NICA listed... NICA will take precedence because my son is racing. Right now NICA overlaps with Ringwood, Mooch and Bear Creek. All of which are awesome venues. So I will miss those. As far as other conflicts between the two series, the week of the race, I’ll look at it and decide which one I want to race more... for this weekend, if I had to choose between Mooch and Fair Hill, I’d choose Mooch. i races Fair Hill last spring and loved it and I missed Mooch last year so I’d go there this year cause Mooch / MTBNJ kick ass and it would be a good time.

Sorry for typos... written with an iphone with a severely shattered screen.
 

jShort

El gran perdedor
Team MTBNJ Halter's
#11
I'm not disagreeing that usac turns some off, just pointing out that the reg is cheaper for the H2H race. 41 vs 35.
I've seen the error in my ways... :)

You ahve to add the 1 day license to your cart when checking out I assume? I own a license so I never do that. Disregard my ignorance
 

xc62701

Well-Known Member
#12
On my way home from last weekend’s NICA race, I was thinking how Team Town Cycle / Ringwood race would’ve had more kid racers show up which would help them and that series. Instead, 450+ kids and some of their racer parents couldn’t go due to NICA commitments. It was strange to see Dillon and his Mom helping / coaching with the NICA race while their own race was happening.
The NICA race was rescheduled. It was definitely not planned out to be on the same weekend. Just a bad coincidence that pulled a bunch of racers away from Ringwood.
 

xc62701

Well-Known Member
#13
From the promoter side of things, aligning NICA, MASS, and H2H would be almost impossible. Between park issues and date restrictions across how many states? And there's only so many weekends with other events drawing people from each region it would be horrendous. It would be nice but it's not gonna happen. The races are so far apart too that most draw their own region and probably steal some but not enough to seriously detract from the numbers.
 
#14
The NICA race was rescheduled. It was definitely not planned out to be on the same weekend. Just a bad coincidence that pulled a bunch of racers away from Ringwood.
I stated above - to not step on other other series schedules when planning contingencies. Hindsight is 20/20 and the Chester race could’ve absolutely ran on its original schedule. There were some decisions made on a shitty weather forecast and some local park politics.
 
#15
From the promoter side of things, aligning NICA, MASS, and H2H would be almost impossible. Between park issues and date restrictions across how many states? And there's only so many weekends with other events drawing people from each region it would be horrendous. It would be nice but it's not gonna happen. The races are so far apart too that most draw their own region and probably steal some but not enough to seriously detract from the numbers.
While i did mention it would be a pain in the ass, opening up the race season to race through fall would definitely alleviate and open up more opportunities.

Thankfully I live dead smack in the middle of the two series and my furthesr drive is to tue MASS finals which is roughly 2:15 each way.

People are likely to travel pretty far for a kick ass race....

So if you go in with an open mind and a williness to partner together, it will happen. And when people thrown out the cons like mentioned, you use them to help figure how to overcome it.
 

szymon

Active Member
#16
I'm not disagreeing that usac turns some off, just pointing out that the reg is cheaper for the H2H race. 41 vs 35.
Yes most mass races are 5-10 more then the h2h, I do think usac does turn some people away either first timers that don't really understand the license or people that have done this for a long time and are sick of paying for a license. I buy the license every year but this year when my uci license came out to be 260 I really wasn't to happy about that.
 

jShort

El gran perdedor
Team MTBNJ Halter's
#17
So if you go in with an open mind and a williness to partner together, it will happen. And when people thrown out the cons like mentioned, you use them to help figure how to overcome it.

Mike, this is a little naive. I dont have much of a role in the MTBNJ race planning, but I listen to some of the conversations, and it sounds like a huge PITA.
It takes a ton of work to just to get 1 series aligned. Adding in the dates from 2 other series? Impossible.
 
#20
Mike, this is a little naive. I dont have much of a role in the MTBNJ race planning, but I listen to some of the conversations, and it sounds like a huge PITA.
It takes a ton of work to just to get 1 series aligned. Adding in the dates from 2 other series? Impossible.
Sure... from a racers perspective... my perspective. I think I may have asked somewhere in this forum if those conversations happen. i think I got shamed in to submission

I did have a solid conversation while riding with a MASS committee member over the winter and my take was they don’t talk to each other.

While at our view it would seem impossible, I guess I have more faith in what people can accomplish if they wanted to do something.