What’s a race?

Patrick

Patrick

Overthinking the draft from the basement already
Staff member
Dave Taylor said:
The problem is you never get a solution to a problem on here. Only an excuse. Super prestige had 187 pre reg for a short track race. They are doing something right up in Ct.
Click to expand...

i think you are telling us the "what is happening" - we are discussing the "why" it is happening.

your opinion on why you think people are leaving SS, or racing, or traveling to a different venue is
the value part. you are the customer.

the promoters have to put out a product group that attracts the most people and remains somewhat profitable.
 
pooriggy

pooriggy

Well-Known Member
Team MTBNJ Halter's
Dave Taylor said:
So just don’t discuss at all and let it die completely.
Click to expand...
Dave, I like hanging with you/riding with you, but based on your posts in this thread, a discussion on how to improve numbers at races would not be productive;)
 
Dave Taylor

Dave Taylor

Rex kwan Do
Patrick said:
i think you are telling us the "what is happening" - we are discussing the "why" it is happening.

your opinion on why you think people are leaving SS, or racing, or traveling to a different venue is
the value part. you are the customer.

the promoters have to put out a product group that attracts the most people and remains somewhat profitable.
Click to expand...
I travel to a lot if Chris Scott events because the vibe and races always kick ass. The same with MTBNJ races. Is XC just dying because the cost has gone up and race time come down? Maybe a short track series in the summer would help. Endurance events seem to keep popping up and having some level of success.
 
Pearl

Pearl

THIS CHANGES EVERYTHING
I think endurance ticks the “event/challenge/race” boxes. The front is racing, the middle is competitive, and the people in the back just finishing and using the aid stations are challenging themselves and just as stoked as the rest of us.

I think once you put on your endurance race, you’ll see how much manpower goes into setting it up.

Where would you put on an additional short track series or a endurance race in the area?
 
Dave Taylor

Dave Taylor

Rex kwan Do
Pearl said:
I think endurance ticks the “event/challenge/race” boxes. The front is racing, the middle is competitive, and the people in the back just finishing and using the aid stations are challenging themselves and just as stoked as the rest of us.

I think once you put on your endurance race, you’ll see how much manpower goes into setting it up.

Where would you put on an additional short track series or a endurance race in the area?
Click to expand...
Cheesequake? LewMo?
 
w_b

w_b

Well-Known Member
If Tatum can hold a successful race, Cheesequake would be lights out yo...

Too bad there is no easy answer. I tend to drink beer and go boating in the summer. Easier.
 
xc62701

xc62701

Well-Known Member
JimN said:
Will you guys have bacon and hot dogs cooked in bacon grease at the aid station?
Click to expand...

Maybe. We are still thinking through the food/aid station deal. It’s a good possibility we’ll have some good stuff there.
 
Joe J

Joe J

Well-Known Member
Norm said:
We had 220+.

Fuck Connecticut.
Click to expand...

Only 135 on the results for super prestige. Plenty of classes with < 5. Ct. has a different model than NJ when it comes to CCAP/NICA so in order to compare #'s you would have to combine the Mooch & NICA events from that weekend.

What I do find interesting is that the winning open men's time at a shot track was only 17min less than the winning time at ringwood.

I would prefer to race local a bit more but if I'm going to blow the whole day I'd rather spend more time racing than most local events provide. To be clear I don't like/hate multi lap endurance races so thats not an option.
 
ryderX

ryderX

Well-Known Member
I think we all race our bikes for basically the same reason. I also think the reasons for not showing up at the races are infinitely more complex. I don’t see any one viable solution to the dwindling attendance at local races.

When I was heavy into the scene I’d hit the MASS series, the H2H series, the 100’s, the Tuesday night Augusta crits, LT100, VT 50 and then I burned out. I took the last few years off of the bike and starting running long distances. It seems to have reignited my desire to ride and race my MTB though with a more selective approach. I no longer need to chase points, I don’t need to race my bike in the rain, I have no need to drive 3hrs for a 90 minute race, I don’t need to stay off my feet the day before a race or not go out on a Friday night or worry about active recovery rides. I loved racing at a high level and I really enjoyed the whole process though it took over my every waking moment and at the end of the day it took the enjoyment and the joy of just riding a bicycle. How many more goofy wooden plaques or race T-shirts does one man need ? So far this year I’ve done 3 MTB races and I’ve had a blast doing them. I’m not the fast guy anymore but I am surely the happiest guy out there.
 
xc62701

xc62701

Well-Known Member
ryderX said:
I think we all race our bikes for basically the same reason. I also think the reasons for not showing up at the races are infinitely more complex. I don’t see any one viable solution to the dwindling attendance at local races.

When I was heavy into the scene I’d hit the MASS series, the H2H series, the 100’s, the Tuesday night Augusta crits, LT100, VT 50 and then I burned out. I took the last few years off of the bike and starting running long distances. It seems to have reignited my desire to ride and race my MTB though with a more selective approach. I no longer need to chase points, I don’t need to race my bike in the rain, I have no need to drive 3hrs for a 90 minute race, I don’t need to stay off my feet the day before a race or not go out on a Friday night or worry about active recovery rides. I loved racing at a high level and I really enjoyed the whole process though it took over my every waking moment and at the end of the day it took the enjoyment and the joy of just riding a bicycle. How many more goofy wooden plaques or race T-shirts does one man need ? So far this year I’ve done 3 MTB races and I’ve had a blast doing them. I’m not the fast guy anymore but I am surely the happiest guy out there.
Click to expand...

Amen brotha! And it’s great to see you out there again!
 
Pearl

Pearl

THIS CHANGES EVERYTHING
Was thinking about this last night, and @ryderX brings up the point i was thinking; If you look at the results sheets from the past 5 years or so, how many names have gone missing from the cat 1/pro races? Life changes, moving, burnout, not caring anymore to race at that high level. Obviously you'd hope cat2/3 racers would move up and fill the spots up, but that level should always have the same names. I have no idea what my research will tell us, but lets dig:

Thankfully the h2h website still has the results from way back, so it makes this easy. Lets look at Lewis Morris; probably the most popular and well attended race in the h2h series.

2012 Lewis Morris - Cat 1 Open
  1. Ed Ceccolini
  2. John Burns
  3. Ben Williams
  4. Rich Wolter
  5. Ken Welch
  6. John Arias
  7. Brian Lariviere
  8. Greg Waggoner
  9. Ken Lundgren
  10. Brian Kelley
  11. Lorenzao Serra
  12. Dave Martin
2018 Lewis Morris - Cat 1 Open
  1. Nick Lando
  2. Andrew Freye
  3. Bobby Lea
  4. Gregg Galleta
  5. Szymon Niemotko
  6. Joe Thomas
  7. Tommy Steinbrunner
  8. Lucas Smallidge
  9. Leo Cardona
  10. Rich Wolter
  11. Ed Ceccolini
  12. Jonah Vasquez
  13. Frank Oreilly
  14. Chris Forenbaher
  15. Tyler Knapp
  16. Robert Muccuen
  17. Gale Hess
  18. Patrick Carey
  19. Matt Bruno
  20. Charlie Rey
  21. Jesse Stauffer

I expected to see no real repeat names, but I bolded the ones that did. So only TWO people from 2012 are still racing pro, or at least attended and finished this category. So maybe people are still showing up to race, or maybe it's a bad example? Maybe a different race:

2012 Jungle - Cat 1 Open
  1. Ed Ceccolini
  2. Ben Williams
  3. Forrest Conrad
  4. Mike Jaworski
  5. Jonathan Schottler
  6. Matt Miller
  7. Greg Waggoner
  8. Ryan Heershap
  9. Rich Wolter
  10. Ken Welch
  11. Brian Kelley
  12. John Arias
  13. Johan Koserius
  14. Theo Procopos
  15. Cole Oberman

2015 Jungle - Cat 1 Open State Champs
  1. Ben Williams
  2. Mike Jaworski
  3. Dillon Van Wart
  4. Ross Anderson
  5. Frank OReilly
  6. Nick Glasser
  7. Brian Kelley
  8. David Kahl
  9. Peter Striegel
  10. John Arias
  11. Cody LaCosta
  12. Paul Meier
  13. @UtahJoe wit the big fat DNF
Again, bolding the names of repeat people from 2012 and 2015.

Is this just showing that a small percentage of people continually race at a high level, or that the turn over is so great that at some point, there isn't new fresh blood to fill in the field like normal? It seems that the numbers don't change, just the people doing the race do.

Okay last one:

2011 Wawayanda - Cat 1 Open
  1. Michael Mooradian
  2. Ron Harding
  3. William Showers
  4. Johan Koserius
  5. Brian Lariviere
  6. Ben Williams
  7. Greg Waggoner
  8. Ken Lundgren
  9. Ryan Heerschap
  10. Daniel Stewart
  11. John Arias
  12. Joseph Azze
  13. Sean Cavanaugh
2017 Wawayanda - Cat 1 Open
  1. Frank OReilly
  2. Rich Wolter
  3. Rob Price
  4. @UtahJoe
  5. Leo Cardona
  6. Joe Johnston
  7. Mike Montablano
  8. Victor Schepisi
  9. John Arias
  10. Nick Glasser

This is a full refresh of names from 2011 to 2017. Not one repeat. Where are those 13 guys from 2011?
Just one name from 2011 to 2017.
 
Last edited:
JDurk

JDurk

Well-Known Member
Pearl said:
Was thinking about this last night, and @ryderX brings up the point i was thinking; If you look at the results sheets from the past 5 years or so, how many names have gone missing from the cat 1/pro races? Life changes, moving, burnout, not caring anymore to race at that high level. Obviously you'd hope cat2/3 racers would move up and fill the spots up, but that level should always have the same names. I have no idea what my research will tell us, but lets dig:

Thankfully the h2h website still has the results from way back, so it makes this easy. Lets look at Lewis Morris; probably the most popular and well attended race in the h2h series.

2012 Lewis Morris - Cat 1 Open
  1. Ed Ceccolini
  2. John Burns
  3. Ben Williams
  4. Rich Wolter
  5. Ken Welch
  6. John Arias
  7. Brian Lariviere
  8. Greg Waggoner
  9. Ken Lundgren
  10. Brian Kelley
  11. Lorenzao Serra
  12. Dave Martin
2018 Lewis Morris - Cat 1 Open
  1. Nick Lando
  2. Andrew Freye
  3. Bobby Lea
  4. Gregg Galleta
  5. Szymon Niemotko
  6. Joe Thomas
  7. Tommy Steinbrunner
  8. Lucas Smallidge
  9. Leo Cardona
  10. Rich Wolter
  11. Ed Ceccolini
  12. Jonah Vasquez
  13. Frank Oreilly
  14. Chris Forenbaher
  15. Tyler Knapp
  16. Robert Muccuen
  17. Gale Hess
  18. Patrick Carey
  19. Matt Bruno
  20. Charlie Rey
  21. Jesse Stauffer

I expected to see no real repeat names, but I bolded the ones that did. So only TWO people from 2012 are still racing pro, or at least attended and finished this category. So maybe people are still showing up to race, or maybe it's a bad example? Maybe a different race:

2012 Jungle - Cat 1 Open
  1. Ed Ceccolini
  2. Ben Williams
  3. Forrest Conrad
  4. Mike Jaworski
  5. Jonathan Schottler
  6. Matt Miller
  7. Greg Waggoner
  8. Ryan Heershap
  9. Rich Wolter
  10. Ken Welch
  11. Brian Kelley
  12. John Arias
  13. Johan Koserius
  14. Theo Procopos
  15. Cole Oberman

2015 Jungle - Cat 1 Open State Champs
  1. Ben Williams
  2. Mike Jaworski
  3. Dillon Van Wart
  4. Ross Anderson
  5. Frank OReilly
  6. Nick Glasser
  7. Brian Kelley
  8. David Kahl
  9. Peter Striegel
  10. John Arias
  11. Cody LaCosta
  12. Paul Meier
  13. @UtahJoe wit the big fat DNF
Again, bolding the names of repeat people from 2012 and 2015.

Is this just showing that a small percentage of people continually race at a high level, or that the turn over is so great that at some point, there isn't new fresh blood to fill in the field like normal? It seems that the numbers don't change, just the people doing the race do.

Okay last one:

2011 Wawayanda - Cat 1 Open
  1. Michael Mooradian
  2. Ron Harding
  3. William Showers
  4. Johan Koserius
  5. Brian Lariviere
  6. Ben Williams
  7. Greg Waggoner
  8. Ken Lundgren
  9. Ryan Heerschap
  10. Daniel Stewart
  11. John Arias
  12. Joseph Azze
  13. Sean Cavanaugh
2017 Wawayanda - Cat 1 Open
  1. Frank OReilly
  2. Rich Wolter
  3. Rob Price
  4. @UtahJoe
  5. Leo Cardona
  6. Joe Johnston
  7. Mike Montablano
  8. Victor Schepisi
  9. John Arias
  10. Nick Glasser

This is a full refresh of names from 2011 to 2017. Not one repeat. Where are those 13 guys from 2011?
Click to expand...
Great comparison, John Arias is #11 and #9 in the last example
 
stb222

stb222

Love Drunk
Jerk Squad
Pearl said:
Was thinking about this last night, and @ryderX brings up the point i was thinking; If you look at the results sheets from the past 5 years or so, how many names have gone missing from the cat 1/pro races? Life changes, moving, burnout, not caring anymore to race at that high level. Obviously you'd hope cat2/3 racers would move up and fill the spots up, but that level should always have the same names. I have no idea what my research will tell us, but lets dig:

Thankfully the h2h website still has the results from way back, so it makes this easy. Lets look at Lewis Morris; probably the most popular and well attended race in the h2h series.

2012 Lewis Morris - Cat 1 Open
  1. Ed Ceccolini
  2. John Burns
  3. Ben Williams
  4. Rich Wolter
  5. Ken Welch
  6. John Arias
  7. Brian Lariviere
  8. Greg Waggoner
  9. Ken Lundgren
  10. Brian Kelley
  11. Lorenzao Serra
  12. Dave Martin
2018 Lewis Morris - Cat 1 Open
  1. Nick Lando
  2. Andrew Freye
  3. Bobby Lea
  4. Gregg Galleta
  5. Szymon Niemotko
  6. Joe Thomas
  7. Tommy Steinbrunner
  8. Lucas Smallidge
  9. Leo Cardona
  10. Rich Wolter
  11. Ed Ceccolini
  12. Jonah Vasquez
  13. Frank Oreilly
  14. Chris Forenbaher
  15. Tyler Knapp
  16. Robert Muccuen
  17. Gale Hess
  18. Patrick Carey
  19. Matt Bruno
  20. Charlie Rey
  21. Jesse Stauffer

I expected to see no real repeat names, but I bolded the ones that did. So only TWO people from 2012 are still racing pro, or at least attended and finished this category. So maybe people are still showing up to race, or maybe it's a bad example? Maybe a different race:

2012 Jungle - Cat 1 Open
  1. Ed Ceccolini
  2. Ben Williams
  3. Forrest Conrad
  4. Mike Jaworski
  5. Jonathan Schottler
  6. Matt Miller
  7. Greg Waggoner
  8. Ryan Heershap
  9. Rich Wolter
  10. Ken Welch
  11. Brian Kelley
  12. John Arias
  13. Johan Koserius
  14. Theo Procopos
  15. Cole Oberman

2015 Jungle - Cat 1 Open State Champs
  1. Ben Williams
  2. Mike Jaworski
  3. Dillon Van Wart
  4. Ross Anderson
  5. Frank OReilly
  6. Nick Glasser
  7. Brian Kelley
  8. David Kahl
  9. Peter Striegel
  10. John Arias
  11. Cody LaCosta
  12. Paul Meier
  13. @UtahJoe wit the big fat DNF
Again, bolding the names of repeat people from 2012 and 2015.

Is this just showing that a small percentage of people continually race at a high level, or that the turn over is so great that at some point, there isn't new fresh blood to fill in the field like normal? It seems that the numbers don't change, just the people doing the race do.

Okay last one:

2011 Wawayanda - Cat 1 Open
  1. Michael Mooradian
  2. Ron Harding
  3. William Showers
  4. Johan Koserius
  5. Brian Lariviere
  6. Ben Williams
  7. Greg Waggoner
  8. Ken Lundgren
  9. Ryan Heerschap
  10. Daniel Stewart
  11. John Arias
  12. Joseph Azze
  13. Sean Cavanaugh
2017 Wawayanda - Cat 1 Open
  1. Frank OReilly
  2. Rich Wolter
  3. Rob Price
  4. @UtahJoe
  5. Leo Cardona
  6. Joe Johnston
  7. Mike Montablano
  8. Victor Schepisi
  9. John Arias
  10. Nick Glasser

This is a full refresh of names from 2011 to 2017. Not one repeat. Where are those 13 guys from 2011?
Click to expand...
Likely the Cat 1 Open for life syndrome?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom