Watchung

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hikeronly

hikeronly

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And what if the ban is not lifted? It might not be lifted. I have heard that bikers may get separate trails away from hikers and equestrians, which means no shared trails. I favor that while some fellow hikers as well as environmentalists want the total ban throughout the reservation to remain in place. The bottom line is: shared trails will not work well here.
 
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Shorepoints

Well-Known Member
We will cross that bridge if we come to it. I would question your assumption that shared trails will not work in Watchung. The Master Plan cites 26 miles of Equestrian Trails and 19+ miles of Hiking trails in the Reservation. There is some duplication of the two, but even if you take the most conservative possible estimate that all 19 miles of hiking trails are included in the 26 miles of Equestrian trails, this is more than the total trail mileage of Chimney Rock and Lewis Morris COMBINED. Chimney Rock is 100% multi-use; Lewis Morris is over 90% multi-use; Hartshorne is 83% multi-use; Six-Mile Run is 100% multi-use; Allaire is 100% multi use. All of these parks are smaller than Watchung Reservation. There is nothing unique about Watchung Reservation that would preclude at least a significant portion of its trails from being multi-use.
 
hikeronly

hikeronly

Member
JimN said:
What's unique about Watchung that makes you believe shared trails won't work well there? It seems to work well everywhere else.
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It does not work well everywhere else despite what it seems to you. Each and every park is unique in its own ways. Some are more similar to others. Watchung Reservation is especially unique. The primary reason that leads me to believe that shared trails will not work well here is that they did not work well 21 years ago. It was a disaster that ought not be repeated.
 
hikeronly

hikeronly

Member
Shorepoints said:
We will cross that bridge if we come to it. I would question your assumption that shared trails will not work in Watchung. The Master Plan cites 26 miles of Equestrian Trails and 19+ miles of Hiking trails in the Reservation. There is some duplication of the two, but even if you take the most conservative possible estimate that all 19 miles of hiking trails are included in the 26 miles of Equestrian trails, this is more than the total trail mileage of Chimney Rock and Lewis Morris COMBINED. Chimney Rock is 100% multi-use; Lewis Morris is over 90% multi-use; Hartshorne is 83% multi-use; Six-Mile Run is 100% multi-use; Allaire is 100% multi use. All of these parks are smaller than Watchung Reservation. There is nothing unique about Watchung Reservation that would preclude at least a significant portion of its trails from being multi-use.
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Being that shared trails did not work 20+ years ago, I question your assumption that they will somehow work now, especially when the number of bikers would be much higher, further adding to the mishegas. The parks you mention are not germane to this particular controversy - Watchung Reservation, which, on its face, is quite unique in so many ways.
 
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Shorepoints

Well-Known Member
hikeronly said:
It does not work well everywhere else despite what it seems to you. Each and every park is unique in its own ways. Some are more similar to others. Watchung Reservation is especially unique. The primary reason that leads me to believe that shared trails will not work well here is that they did not work well 21 years ago. It was a disaster that ought not be repeated.
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I would say the fault in your argument is that you are citing two-decade-old examples as evidence of your thesis. The reality is that mountain bikes, mountain bikers, and mountain bike trail design have evolved substantially since that time. There is peaceful co-existence happening at thousands of parks around the country and dozens in NJ. Please don't respond telling us to go to those other parks, because we shouldn't have to leave the county where we pay taxes when there is a perfectly suitable park in our own.
 
Juggernaut

Juggernaut

Master of the Metaphor
Ever notice how antagonist posts seem spike when @Norm is away.

I'm getting a little tired of these preaching down from up high on the unwashed masses act.

Every post seems be nothing more that an attempt to bait the members into an altercation.

Am I too sensitive, perhaps I am..... but I would never join a forum and do what you continue to do.

Feel free to speculate on the self redacted conclusion to this post. I won't be reading it.

@Norm, I'll save you the trouble, I'm banning myself for the rest of the month. If you could read my mind, you'd understand.
 
JimN

JimN

Captain Wildcat
Team MTBNJ Halter's
hikeronly said:
Watchung Reservation is especially unique.
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hikeronly said:
Watchung Reservation, which, on its face, is quite unique in so many ways.
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Got any examples of its uniqueness as it pertains to the trails themselves? I was only there once and admittedly saw a very small portion of the park, but it didn't seem any different to me than the trail systems previously mentioned, other than the obvious lack of trail maintenance happening there.
 
hikeronly

hikeronly

Member
Shorepoints said:
I would say the fault in your argument is that you are citing two-decade-old examples as evidence of your thesis. The reality is that mountain bikes, mountain bikers, and mountain bike trail design have evolved substantially since that time. There is peaceful co-existence happening at thousands of parks around the country and dozens in NJ. Please don't respond telling us to go to those other parks, because we shouldn't have to leave the county where we pay taxes when there is a perfectly suitable park in our own.
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I'm not the one telling you to go to other parks in other counties if you want to mountain bike. The law is telling you that. Your sense of automatic entitlement is unreasonable and in my opinion outrageous. Your (plural) relentless bullying is on full display for all to see. And your (singular) flowery rhetoric flies in the face of the reality of this situation.
 
S

Shorepoints

Well-Known Member
hikeronly said:
Being that shared trails did not work 20+ years ago, I question your assumption that they will somehow work now, especially when the number of bikers would be much higher, further adding to the mishegas. The parks you mention are not germane to this particular controversy - Watchung Reservation, which, on its face, is quite unique in so many ways.
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Obviously every park is unique, but to say Watchung is so extraordinarily unique that some (not ALL) shared trail use is incompatible here has no basis in fact. The Master Trail Plan, written by people much more qualified than you and I, states clearly that multi-use trails are appropriate at Watchung. That said, points to you for integrating "mishegas" into your post. Happy New Year...
 
clarkenstein

clarkenstein

JORBA Board Member/Chapter Leader
JORBA.ORG
ladies/gentlemen - please stop responding, unless you are the same person and are just enjoying arguing with yourself.

absolutely nothing will come from continually discussing this topic on this forum. take it offline - exchange phone numbers or something and talk in person. maybe make it a date night.
 
Steve Vai

Steve Vai

Endurance Guy: Tolerates most of us.
Someone went through the Reservation this morning with a bulldozer and cleared sections of forest to block the trails. Absolutely sickening destruction of entire sections of trees and trails.

And they're afraid mountain bikers will destroy the trails?
 
terrabike01

terrabike01

Well-Known Member
clarkenstein said:
ladies/gentlemen - please stop responding, unless you are the same person and are just enjoying arguing with yourself.


absolutely nothing will come from continually discussing this topic on this forum. take it offline - exchange phone numbers or something and talk in person. maybe make it a date night.
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Exactly. Everyone should pay @hikeronly no mind. His point of view will never change. It's a shame going through life so bitter and angry over a bike.
 
I Ride Bikes

I Ride Bikes

Well-Known Member
JimN said:
Got any examples of its uniqueness as it pertains to the trails themselves? I was only there once and admittedly saw a very small portion of the park, but it didn't seem any different to me than the trail systems previously mentioned, other than the obvious lack of trail maintenance happening there.
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You nailed it. The absolute only thing unique about this park is that it lacks what awesomeness the MTB community brings to it to share with the entire community. It's a disgrace what can happen to a park without the help of volunteer organizations like JORBA. The land owners know this and we have a great reputation.
 
Patrick

Patrick

Overthinking the draft from the basement already
Staff member
terrabike01 said:
Exactly. Everyone should pay @hikeronly no mind. His point of view will never change. It's a shame going through life so bitter and angry over a bike.
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Don't agree -
The law of the land is on @hikeronly's side now, and he can defend the status quo as rigorously as he sees fit. He has a clear position of no bikes, i'm not sure if there is an opening for separate bike section (or new shared section, with current areas off-limits) -

what is the difference between watchung and allaire? i'd guess about 15 million people within 20 miles? anyone have the census data and can whip that up for me?

The tourne and neighboring properties might be a closer match, and a good example of how "we" as a community of mtbrs self-police and keep riders off the hiking trails. morris county monitors this closely - and perhaps conflict/infraction data can be shared. I'm not sure what is acceptable, like drinking in the park at night, the number will never be zero.

as @rick81721 would say, most of the data presented here is anecdotal.

additionally, i would avoid using terms like, 'your goals make you blind to the reality' - since constructed reality is dependent on experiences, we all only have one base to build on.....
 
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