Trail Damage from Selfish Riders

mustclime

Active Member
#41
Riiiigght... fat bikes magically defy the laws of physics. I have seen fat bike ruts on trails
Physics? What, like ground pressure or pounds per square inch? You saying snow shoes don’t work? I have ridden down a trail where some a-hole took some 2.3 tires and used my 4.6 inch tires at 8-12 psi to flatten out their ruts.... but whatever.
 

SmooveP

Well-Known Member
#42
Physics? What, like ground pressure or pounds per square inch? You saying snow shoes don’t work? I have ridden down a trail where some a-hole took some 2.3 tires and used my 4.6 inch tires at 8-12 psi to flatten out their ruts.... but whatever.
Dude, no. While there might be some narrow range of conditions where this might be true, fatbikes are capable of doing as much damage as skinny tires. It's irresponsible to give people the impression that it's ok to ride mud if you have a fatbike. I'd love for this to be true, since I've been primarily on a fatbike since 2011.
 

mustclime

Active Member
#43
Dude, no. While there might be some narrow range of conditions where this might be true, fatbikes are capable of doing as much damage as skinny tires. It's irresponsible to give people the impression that it's ok to ride mud if you have a fatbike. I'd love for this to be true, since I've been primarily on a fatbike since 2011.
See my avatar, that is a e100 German super tank, it weighed over 100 tons and it had a lower ground pressure than 34 ton M3A1 Sherman tank. What does that mean? In a muddy field where a M3 would sink up to the belly pan, the e100 would drive right over while being more than three times as heavy. Against the laws of physics? The e100 has 36 inch wide track, the tracks of the M3 were 23 inches wide. The e100 track ground contact patch was also twice as long as a M3..... this resulted in lower ground pressures..... what does this mean? Well, I have a shoe footprint about the same size as a aired down 4.6 inch fat bike tire (size 8.5 shoe). For me, if the trail is to wet to hike, it’s to wet to ride. For people that have 2.3 tires.... think of your trail ground pressure as two 2x2 inch squares (for a 29er, smaller for a 26er), so if you can hike the trails on stilts and not leave deep 2x2 holes, you can ride...... as for the xcross guys, it’s a road bike with knobbie tires.... keep on the road till we have a year with out rain.
 

MuniMan

Active Member
#44
What if there was a phone app, which offered up-to-date trail conditions, sponsored by JORBA and the other organizations in the tri-state area. Conditions could be modified by selected organization members only. Any trail's status would be marked by a red or green circle and not why it gets a red or green circle. Maybe on the app the trails could be grouped by location, so a party that has shown up for a ride can easily find a close, alternative location. Selecting a location could give you directions from your current location.

When someone buys a new bike, along with the owners manual is a card tied to the handlebars. It gives information about the app, the local organization, and general trail etiquette.

There could also be signs at trailheads, guiding people to the app, for those who maybe are still unaware.

Trailforks allows you to post conditions.

Trouble is it varies day to day and even by the hour and is also influenced by the trails exposure to the sun. What’s frozen at 8:00am can soften up by noon. Today (in this neighborhood) will probably be a prime example of that. 20’s last night followed by sun and mid thirties today. South facing trails will soften up while the trails on the north side of the hill will have a chance of staying firm.
 

sptimmy43

Well-Known Member
#46
Trailforks allows you to post conditions.

Trouble is it varies day to day and even by the hour and is also influenced by the trails exposure to the sun. What’s frozen at 8:00am can soften up by noon. Today (in this neighborhood) will probably be a prime example of that. 20’s last night followed by sun and mid thirties today. South facing trails will soften up while the trails on the north side of the hill will have a chance of staying firm.
This is a good point. For an app or even a "trail closed" sign to be effective people have to be responsible to update the information regularly. Like several times per day. This is a much bigger burden than it seems. Hell, very few people rate trails on trailforks. Some trails don't get conditions updates ever or at best every few weeks. What good is that? Even on here each trail conditions thread is populated by the same few people.

My opinion is that educational signage at the trailhead is the best way to reach riders. I also think no matter how hard we try there is always going to be a learning curve for new riders. I think we all have probably been on a trail we shouldn't have at one point. Unfortunately, that's how we learn.
 

rick81721

Well-Known Member
#47
See my avatar, that is a e100 German super tank, it weighed over 100 tons and it had a lower ground pressure than 34 ton M3A1 Sherman tank. What does that mean? In a muddy field where a M3 would sink up to the belly pan, the e100 would drive right over while being more than three times as heavy. Against the laws of physics? The e100 has 36 inch wide track, the tracks of the M3 were 23 inches wide. The e100 track ground contact patch was also twice as long as a M3..... this resulted in lower ground pressures..... what does this mean? Well, I have a shoe footprint about the same size as a aired down 4.6 inch fat bike tire (size 8.5 shoe). For me, if the trail is to wet to hike, it’s to wet to ride. For people that have 2.3 tires.... think of your trail ground pressure as two 2x2 inch squares (for a 29er, smaller for a 26er), so if you can hike the trails on stilts and not leave deep 2x2 holes, you can ride...... as for the xcross guys, it’s a road bike with knobbie tires.... keep on the road till we have a year with out rain.
Wow what a great analogy. And that tank magically leaves no tracks in a muddy field? If it's muddy enough, fat bikes leave ruts, end of story.
 

SmooveP

Well-Known Member
#48
See my avatar, that is a e100 German super tank, it weighed over 100 tons and it had a lower ground pressure than 34 ton M3A1 Sherman tank. What does that mean? In a muddy field where a M3 would sink up to the belly pan, the e100 would drive right over while being more than three times as heavy. Against the laws of physics? The e100 has 36 inch wide track, the tracks of the M3 were 23 inches wide. The e100 track ground contact patch was also twice as long as a M3..... this resulted in lower ground pressures..... what does this mean? Well, I have a shoe footprint about the same size as a aired down 4.6 inch fat bike tire (size 8.5 shoe). For me, if the trail is to wet to hike, it’s to wet to ride. For people that have 2.3 tires.... think of your trail ground pressure as two 2x2 inch squares (for a 29er, smaller for a 26er), so if you can hike the trails on stilts and not leave deep 2x2 holes, you can ride...... as for the xcross guys, it’s a road bike with knobbie tires.... keep on the road till we have a year with out rain.
Ugh. There's a grain of pseudo-scientific truth in your post, but what happens when you drive your tank (or fatbike) over something that's not a flat muddy field? Like a ditch or a sidecut trail? Or uphill? Most of the people on this thread are trying to discourage riding in the mud and it sounds like you're saying it's OK if you're on a fatbike. It's not!
 

jimvreeland

Shop: Hilltop Bicycles
Shop Keep
#49
We know the majority of the problem is ignorance/lack of education. Would it help if JORBA had more exposure at every local shop? I know there are some shops that do a great job of supporting JORBA and trying to educate riders. Would it help if every shop asked "Have you heard of JORBA?" with every purchase? It would be cool if a new MTB purchase could include 1 free year of basic JORBA membership. Not sure how we could financially make that happen.

(this is also a good reminder to renew my membership which expires today or tomorrow)
I'm pretty sure when a customer buys a pretty new mountain bike they don't want to get lectured about proper trail use, they want to go out and ride. Just like when you buy a new iPhone they don't lecture you about texting and driving. Also, people that buy bikes from bike shops make up about 1% of the total user group. If Jorba wanted to actually make a difference they'd need to set-up an info booth at Walmart and Target.
 

fidodie

Well-Known Member
Staff member
#51
I've been inside the ski structure in Xanadu. That would be a great area to take over. But it is sloped, so maybe downhill with ramps and features.
Indoor/year round downhill park sounds amazing...
i was thinking about this not too long ago - it makes no sense to try to create snow in the summer. end up with fog inside!
bikes seemed like a good idea. better idea -

learn how to longboard! (these are short longboards.....???)

1518558003363.png
 

Norm

Mayor McCheese
Team MTBNJ Halter's
#52
What if there was a phone app, which offered up-to-date trail conditions, sponsored by JORBA and the other organizations in the tri-state area. Conditions could be modified by selected organization members only. Any trail's status would be marked by a red or green circle and not why it gets a red or green circle. Maybe on the app the trails could be grouped by location, so a party that has shown up for a ride can easily find a close, alternative location. Selecting a location could give you directions from your current location.

When someone buys a new bike, along with the owners manual is a card tied to the handlebars. It gives information about the app, the local organization, and general trail etiquette.

There could also be signs at trailheads, guiding people to the app, for those who maybe are still unaware.
Imagine if someone had actually already built that app and it used crowdsourced feedback to maintain current conditions...

Paging @soundz ...
 

mustclime

Active Member
#54
Ugh. There's a grain of pseudo-scientific truth in your post, but what happens when you drive your tank (or fatbike) over something that's not a flat muddy field? Like a ditch or a sidecut trail? Or uphill? Most of the people on this thread are trying to discourage riding in the mud and it sounds like you're saying it's OK if you're on a fatbike. It's not!
Blah,blah, blah..... next you are going to tell me that babies are not the other white meat and that it is not ok to eat unruly children. Now if you will excuse me I have to get back to the bridge and wait for my supper.
 

stb222

Love Drunk
Jerk Squad
#55
I'm pretty sure when a customer buys a pretty new mountain bike they don't want to get lectured about proper trail use, they want to go out and ride. Just like when you buy a new iPhone they don't lecture you about texting and driving. Also, people that buy bikes from bike shops make up about 1% of the total user group. If Jorba wanted to actually make a difference they'd need to set-up an info booth at Walmart and Target.
Non elitists love lectures from elitists.
 

rlb

Well-Known Member
#59
I'm pretty sure when a customer buys a pretty new mountain bike they don't want to get lectured about proper trail use, they want to go out and ride. Just like when you buy a new iPhone they don't lecture you about texting and driving. Also, people that buy bikes from bike shops make up about 1% of the total user group. If Jorba wanted to actually make a difference they'd need to set-up an info booth at Walmart and Target.
I didn't say lecture them about trail use, just make sure they're aware of JORBA. Just throwing ideas out there.

Maybe a better idea is have a JOBRA registration drive or something like that camped out in parking lots of popular trails (Six Mile, CR, Allaire) when it's going to be nice weather with shitty trail conditions (April Saturdays?).
 

jimvreeland

Shop: Hilltop Bicycles
Shop Keep
#60
I get the idea. They just need to get in front of a different group of people, we all already know. Even at the last MTBNJ Group ride Ken gave a little speech trying to shame us into becoming members, but I bet every person there already is or was a member so nothing was accomplished. If anything, the constant hounding and guilt trip has completely turned me off to the cause.

There's gotta be a way to work with the parks to have signage put up. Someone could easily put a sign on the way into any park with current conditions on it.