The MetsThread
- Thread starter soundz
- Start date
1speed
Incredibly profound yet fantastically flawed
This is objectively incorrect. Neither was an exceptional defensive catcher - Carter was better there overall, but his best defensive years were with the Expos, and neither could throw out their own grandmother on the base paths during their time with the Mets. But offensively, it's not really close, with Piazza having such an edge that the defense almost doesn't matter, both career-long and during their time with the Mets. Career-wise, despite having about a thousand fewer at-bats, Piazza had more hits, scored more runs, had over a hundred more HRs, and had a higher OBP and slugging percentage (and therefore a much higher OPS.) You can probably attribute at least some of Piazza's production to his "nutrition plan" but since that's apparently not being held against him for the Hall, it seems unreasonable to count it against him in a head-to-head as well.
Martin, to be fair... Gary Carter was one of my first baseball cards... 82 donruss when he was with the expos. Loved watching his goofy batting style when I was a little kid... Then there's the part where he won a championship and piazza almost got swept by the Yankees...due to this highly analytical and objective breakdown, I'm going to have to stick with Gary 
piazza "lead by example" - that isn't enough. Carter had the cred to call people out, and he did.
piazza was catching when benitez gave up the 9th inning game 1 hr which was the pivot in the series. he didn't elevate his pitcher. he didn't even leave the base path after clemens threw a bat head at him. he could have at least gotten held back - california attitude. yogi would still be wrapped around him.
'86 attitude delivers series, '00 attitude delivers a ho-hum.
We are talking about who's bumping the first line Carter or Hernandez. Don't get me wrong they delivered. And Lenny holy shit have you been following on Stern. That team sounded like the most disfunctional winners.
Piazza was an unknown who Lasorda decided to take under his wing for pizza mans dad. That home run after 9/11 that was a Lou Gehrig moment for me.
I liked both equally and were glad they were on my team.
Piazza was an unknown who Lasorda decided to take under his wing for pizza mans dad. That home run after 9/11 that was a Lou Gehrig moment for me.
I liked both equally and were glad they were on my team.
1speed
Incredibly profound yet fantastically flawed
You're talking intangibles, which is fine: "intangibles" is often code for "we haven't figured out how to properly measure it yet". But in what we do measure now, statistically they just don't match up. Piazza has few if any offensive peers as a catcher, and if there is one thing I think the whole field of sabermetrics has taught us, it's that the value of a position player always leans toward offensive contribution. In order to value Carter higher the way you outline here, you have to buy into the notion that a catcher is a de facto team leader, and I don't know if that's necessarily true. Given a catcher's perspective of the field, I see where that comes from, but these guys are all pros and I'd say the need for a field leader is often overstated - everyone should know what the fuck they're doing in any game situation. I do think Carter sometimes got an undeserved bad rap for not being a "team guy" in NY (I've read a few stories about how he was perceived as a primadonna by a lot of his teammates) but you have to take that with a grain of salt because (1) he was never inconstistent and it seems his gung-ho attitude and willingness to call guys out was actually sincere and (2) not being a "team guy" on the '86 Mets really just means you weren't an aspiring felon, which in some camps is a good thing.
MikeyBikey2000
Well-Known Member
Why is Mackey Sasser not in this conversation?
1speed
Incredibly profound yet fantastically flawed
Because he was no Barry Lyons ...
Was Sasser the guy who suddenly couldn't throw the ball back to the pitcher?
yes
http://www.espn.com/video/clip?id=11537464
Which of course is probably what inspired Rube Bakers character in Major League II....He fixed this problem by thinking about playboy interview
Jerry grote?
ok - maybe not.
Carter because of his leadership -
and this.
who is mike
qclabrat
Well-Known Member
I think we can all agree on this
Carter was an above average defensive player
Piazza was an average defensive player
Carter was an above average offensive player
Piazza was an outstanding offensive player
to me, I weigh the value of a catcher more for their defense, therefore with the slightest margin I give the edge to Carter. Look up the rtot/yr for each, with the exception of one year, Carter's defense was significantly better than Piazza. I think for 4 years piazza was over -8, which brands him as being terrible at the position. Thats of course if you read much into that statistical mumbo jumbo.
Carter was an above average defensive player
Piazza was an average defensive player
Carter was an above average offensive player
Piazza was an outstanding offensive player
to me, I weigh the value of a catcher more for their defense, therefore with the slightest margin I give the edge to Carter. Look up the rtot/yr for each, with the exception of one year, Carter's defense was significantly better than Piazza. I think for 4 years piazza was over -8, which brands him as being terrible at the position. Thats of course if you read much into that statistical mumbo jumbo.
rlb
Well-Known Member
rlb
Well-Known Member
He's gotta get out of his head and hit. Maybe having Yo in the lineup will help him.
Juggernaut
Master of the Metaphor
Juggernaut
Master of the Metaphor
Monday pitchers n' catchers, F hockey and basketball
I'm giving a "like"... but ix-nay on the F ockey-hay.
Juggernaut
Master of the Metaphor
we are saved this year:
Collins Has Plan For Trying To Keep Mets Pitchers Healthy
Pretty sure the plan is to have them throw "non-dominant" handed.