Ships Log: Fat Aircraft carrier war games

Steve Vai

Endurance Guy: Tolerates most of us.
My results in the 20 minute test look sub-par. I'm curious how I would fair in a two-hour test. Anybody want to give that one a try. ;)

I do:D

That's right up my alley. I can hover between 270-290 watts for 3 hours. That's why I hit that Round Valley Loop so often, it's my version of an FTP test and it's much more of a number/effort I can relate to. I know a lot of guys claim the 20 test is just as good but have any of you actually tried to hold that number for 60 minutes? It's a MUCH different effort!!

-Jim.
 

Norm

Mayor McCheese
Team MTBNJ Halter's
a lot of guys claim the 20 test is just as good but have any of you actually tried to hold that number for 60 minutes?

Yeah, pretty much every weekend from May through December last year. In 1 sense, the only number that matters is the one to the left of your name on the results sheet. In another sense, none of these numbers matter.

Troy Aikman!!!
 

ChrisG

Unapologetic Lifer for Rock and Roll
Another issue I have is a little more personal. I am not a strong, powerful guy. Through years of experience, I know that I can hold a 100% effort for only a short period of time relative to others. Basically, when I am forced to my maximum, I'm going to slow down sooner than some other riders. OTOH, I can hold an 80% effort all friggin day. My results in the 20 minute test look sub-par. I'm curious how I would fair in a two-hour test.
Not surprisingly, this also describes my situation exactly. If I finally can get a power meter this season, I'm really eager to see how this all plays out in the data, and then how much I can push my physiology in other directions.
 

kush

Active Member
The value of the 20 minute test is only to track progress. Using that value as a basis for training is where I begin to shake my head. Many people have begun training to improve the result in that test. Instead, that number should be the result of training for your specific event(s). I'm not working my butt off to get a better test result. I want a better race result.

I'm totally confused by this statement. I (and from what I can see the masses) use it exactly for that purpose in order to properly apply intensity for any given exercise. The training plan for any given day calls for a so and so effort at my threshold, or intervals at xxx% of my threshold, or a ride at tempo, or active recovery below x watts. All of this is based on my FTP which I test regularly and update now. How can FTP not be the basis for training?
 

BiknBen

Well-Known Member
I'm totally confused by this statement.

I'm gonna have to leave you hangin on that one. You can ask me about it next time you see me. Expect to hear me out for about an hour.

:topic:
I like boats and pets. Preferably, boats and pets owned by other people. I let my guinea pig out of the cage yesterday and it was two hours before she went back in. My daughter is the only one who is able to catch her and pick her up.
 

stb222

Love Drunk
Jerk Squad
I'm gonna have to leave you hangin on that one. You can ask me about it next time you see me. Expect to hear me out for about an hour.

Or wait until Ben publishes his first book. Friel won't know what hit him.
 

Norm

Mayor McCheese
Team MTBNJ Halter's
This is a fair enough read:
http://home.trainingpeaks.com/articles/cycling/what-is-threshold-power.aspx

The 20 minute test is aimed to make something hard, less hard. I don't really see people training specifically for a 20 minute test, though 2 or 3x20s is a staple of any training plan and has been well before power entered the picture. The real value is for you to use the 20 minute result and to find a baseline to work with. Then you need to line up a well-balanced array of training based on that, all the while going back to the link above and assessing some of what is said about your FTP. Specifically, does it feel right? If your test says your FTP is 331, and you try to average 331 for an hour and fail at 30 minutes, it's time to lower your zones. It needs to be a continuous feedback loop.

The reason 1 person can't go as hard as another is because 1 person is going at their 20 second power and the other person is going at their 30 second power, as an example. Of course the guy going at his 30 second power is going to last longer. By definition, if you fail earlier, you were going at a smaller critical power duration. To make an somewhat extreme example, Maurice's 60 second CP is probably my 30 second CP. So I can hang with Maurice for 30 seconds, then I start to see plaid and he rides away. This is because my 60s CP is not as developed.

W/kg is a telling number...in France. In NJ, it's considerably less so. In most races in this state, you rarely get a climb more than 200 vertical feet. In NJ road races, I think the most I've seen is about 50 feet per lap. In cross, maybe a hair more, not much. On the mtb it comes more into play but then your bike handling and setup can easily outweigh the importance of w/kg. At a place like KVSP, your CP20/CP30 play a bigger role than your w/kg @ FTP. If Utah has a CP30 w/kg of 4 and a thin guy has a w/kg of 3 at that same 30 second duration, Utah is likely going to have no issues dropping him. This paragraph really goes in the "it depends" category.

Ideally, you could quantify al your target races and figure out what "bins" of power you will spend a lot of time in. As most people don't have 3000 hours to do this, you go with the percentages and raise your FTP while teasing up your high-end, often times in the form of road races that go round and round and round. In looking forward to Battenkill, you can look at the elevation profile and get a feel for how long the main climbs are going to be. So you could specialize in those climbs and try to hide for the rest of the race. This is what I'll likely do a little bit of in the next 7 weeks. In a MTB race, that's harder to do. You really want to do a lot of high-end efforts, as well as high-end efforts which are immediately followed by tempo riding. That was one of the cx plan workouts that hurt like a bitch, but really drove home how piss poor my power output is on the backside of a high-end effort of 20-30 seconds.

These are somewhat disparate thoughts. I have a conference call momentarily and don't have time to make sure it has much cohesion.

I also think Friel is not a good place to start.
 

UtahJoe

Team Workhorse
Team MTBNJ Halter's
Great stuff Norm, thank you.

Finally back to my office. Lot of running around today. Meeting in middlesex, then linden, then back to roxbury...anyway.

My meeting this morning was not until 10:30 so I got a bit of time to ride. Not much worth noting. Hopped on the mountain bike and rode over to the tourne. It was semi rideable. I dont have wide tires, or studs and im not going to be getting any. In the winter I really only ride my mountain bike from my house and by road to whatever park I plan to ride at. Usually because I get two "daylight" rides a week and they are my long rides..3-5 hours. If I drive to a park, there arent many in which I can get that kind of time in. So I prefer to do rides like I did on sunday...rockaway to lewis morris and back. About 10mi on the road each way, then whatever amount of time screwing around in the park. Therefore, I like tires that are good both on and off road...Pythons work awesome for this, but are not great snow tires.

I also have ben loned a pair of lake boots by one of my friends. Got to finally try them today in the cold weather. Not sure how cold it was but my bottle froze solid in an hour, so it much has been pretty f'ing cold. Are they better than my northwaves? Well I like the boa laces and they are a bit more comfortable. However, they didnt feel any warmer since by an 1:15 my toes were numb. They are nicer and better made. But im not going to run out and drop $200 right now on them over my northwaves. My feet seem to get just as cold, so why bother for another few weeks of these super cold days.

Ok back to the geek stuff. Jim and Ben both make great points about the FTP test and 20min or 19 hours or whatever. I have not done a long ride with my PM yet, so I have no idea how much power I can make over the long haul. Longest ride I have done was a 2hr tempo ride (based on HR) and my ave power was 255, which is the lower end of my tempo power zone. My ave HR was 140.

I have had a few people who like to read my thread but never post ask me about the zones and what they are, so I will list what im currently using.

(Vanseggern...this is for you, pay attention...I know you are reading.)

So for power based on my FTP of 331w

Zone 1 <55% (active recovery) 182w
Zone 2 56-75% of FTP (endurance) 185-248w
Zone 3 76-90% of FTP (tempo) 252-298w
Zone 4 91-105% of FTP (lactate threshold) 301-348w
Zone 5 106-120% of FTP (VO2max) 351-397w
Zone 6 121-150% of FTP (anaerobic capacity) 401-497w
Zone 7 >150% of FTP (neuromuscular power) 497w


So on my 705 I will be look down and see what zone I am in and try to keep myself in whatever zone I happen to be aiming for on that peticular workout. There is more to it of course, but thats the simple explanation.

So far my heartrate zones (based off my LT) and power zones seem to be lining up. When I start doing more intense rides, we'll see.

Ok, have to get to the post office before 5, more shit to bore you later.
 

Norm

Mayor McCheese
Team MTBNJ Halter's
Take the power zone off your display. It defines useless IMO.

Add average lap power and 3 sec power. Also use your lap button aplenty.

Do you have WKO+?
 

kush

Active Member
I haven't got WKO+. I demo'd it, and I'm not sure of its utility at this point. Maybe laters.

3sec avg is great because regular power is too volatile, zones are of no use, and you should keep hitting lap on each stage of your workout even if they're 20 second bursts, and keep your avg lap power in front of you so you have a target to reach for on each effort.
 

vanseggern1

Active Member
(Vanseggern...this is for you, pay attention...I know you are reading.)

Of course I'm reading your stuff. I've read bits and pieces about the zones in various books, online, etc, but can't say that I understand it all fully yet...or ever will. Nevertheless, would be curious to see my own numbers sometime down the road (pun intended).
 

BiknBen

Well-Known Member
You guys realize your training plans are associated with Friel right. Friel Founded TrainingPeaks http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Friel. Friel wrote the preface in the beloved Training and Racing with a Power Meter.

Friel started a movement in endurance training. It appears that Friel did not continue to pursue publishing as power meter use exploded. Hunter Allen, and whoever else you wish to site, expanded on it. To say that Friel is lame or something to that end is kinda silly. Friel's stuff is becoming dated just as anything would if no longer developed or refined.

Ok, Ilya, you baited me to respond. I shake my head at the 20-minute test because I don't think it provides enough information. It only determines your average power for 20 minutes. Developing an entire plan based on that number is a pretty big guess.

I believe you guys are familiar with Critical Power or the power you can maintain for a given time. You establish Critical Power numbers for multiple increment of time. Average power for 12 seconds is referred to as CP0.2, Avg for 1 minute is CP1, 6 minutes is CP6, then CP12, CP30, CP60, CP90, and CP180. By establishing average power numbers for all of these durations, you have more useful info to train with. The cool thing is, you don't have to test for them. Most of this stuff can be extracted from normal ride data, preferably a race.

So, you continue to fall short in a sprint even though you had a good position to succeed? Gotta work on improving CP0.2 and CP1. Having trouble maintaining position at the end of a race? Let's work on CP6. Is that big climb your Achilles heel? CP12 is where we should focus.

You training plan should be based on what it is you need to improve. Using Critical Power numbers allow you to focus on that specific area. How you develop individual workouts to produce an improvement is another topic altogether.
 
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ArmyOfNone

Well-Known Member
battleship-game.jpg


You sunk my battleship!!!

I have heard Ben's book. I could write it for you.

My head hurts reading this. Talk about the big bang theory or when dinosaurs used to roam the earth.

If you are looking for a good data analysis program, we just started toying with this http://goldencheetah.org/...its badass and FREE.
 

rocknrollgirl

Well-Known Member
battleship-game.jpg


You sunk my battleship!!!

I have heard Ben's book. I could write it for you.

My head hurts reading this. Talk about the big bang theory or when dinosaurs used to roam the earth.

If you are looking for a good data analysis program, we just started toying with this http://goldencheetah.org/...its badass and FREE.

Can we talk about DNA PLEAZZZZZZEEEEE??? Just kidding. I actually made it through all of the data talk this time. Probably becuase the cute puppy was missing.
 
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