Riding by the Numbers

shrpshtr325 said:
i just want to throw some mathematical perspective here, i dont want to be a downer, or a negative nancy, so if it come across that way, im sorry, not my intent at all.

your power now was 320 (avg power for FTP iirc from my readings) so 304 for FTP.
your avg power was 269 (avg power from august per your earlier post) so 255.55 for FTP

304-255.55=48.45watts.

48.45/255.55=.18959

that is a 18.96% INCREASE in power, seems like a whole hell of a lot to me, especially for someone who has been riding all along and is not starting new off the couch.

is it possible for that kind of jump in that time? i honestly have no clue, but 2.5 months for a (almost) 20% increase in a seasoned athlete seems large. This would bring me to question the consistency of the measuring device (which it seems alot of people dont trust the stages, i have no experience with them as i have a powertap that i use).
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I think it’s possible. I tested in I belive January and again in March and went from 302 to 337. Early in the year gains would be easier as you are tryi g to ramp up fitness to peak in late spring nost likely. FTP has more to do with gaining fitness than gaining power and although it’s possible to build miscle it would be very tough to build miscle and fitness equally without running on the brink of complete exhaustion/fatigue. I find when I lift a lot in the winter I don’t have much more than zone 2 in the legs for the weekends. On the other hand I built all year and can now greatly reduce my ride length and taper for a week and I may see a 20-25% incease in ftp since the spring. But FTP doesn’t matter at all onless you are a TT guy. Power to weight matters and little guys with big legs always go uphill the fastest. I have struggled to get past 3.75w/kg myself. What else I find is that w/kg goes out the door when u r on the line because I regularly beat a guy that FTPs in the 370s and weighs 15lb less than me.
 
David Taylor said:
Think more about the F and the T
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This makes absolutely no fucking sense. If your functional threshold is 200w, what’s the point?
The Power number is equally, if not the most important assuming the F and T are being measured in this crazy place called reality.



I think there are so many to measure FTP and half the times it’s apple and oranges and avocados.

The important thing is to be consistent, get a baseline, and try to improve on that. This Is actually really simple and @BrianGT3 seems to have a grip. (The uncalibrated Stages not withstanding :) )
 
David Taylor said:
I regularly beat a guy that FTPs in the 370s and weighs 15lb less than me.
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FTP and race results have little to do with one another. If they did we'd all be getting lapped by the Zwifters, but we aren't. Even in a discipline you'd think it matters most, like TTs, it doesn't. When I was racing TTs my FTP was almost 400 watts and I struggled to beat guys that could tuck into the bike and stay more aero. Things like CX rely on being able to put out dozens and dozens of burst efforts, which a 400 watt FTP won't help. Even the new short XC format favors a rider that can put out multiple high effort attacks, which has little to do with FTP. The only time the number matters is in setting zones for training. And maybe pacing.
 
jShort said:
This makes absolutely no fucking sense. If your functional threshold is 200w, what’s the point?
The Power number is equally, if not the most important assuming the F and T are being measured in this crazy place called reality.



I think there are so many to measure FTP and half the times it’s apple and oranges and avocados.

The important thing is to be consistent, get a baseline, and try to improve on that. This Is actually really simple and @BrianGT3 seems to have a grip. (The uncalibrated Stages not withstanding :) )
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So what about a guy that can do one minute bursts at 700w but FTPs at 200? Good chance he’ll win a xc race with short and punchy climbs over the 370ftp guy that can’t do a 500 burst for one minute.
 
@BrianGT3 - sorry to have contributed to the total decimation of your thread. I am a firm believer that in order to be a better racer in *most* disciplines, it helps tremendously to have a solid FTP to use as a foundation for everything else. The exception is road racing, where you can work exclusively on your ability to draft and your CP1/CP2 and make your way to cat 3. Your success in all other disciplines will benefit from having a better FTP number. Even saying that, you will be able to better build your CP1/CP2 with a solid FTP foundation.

I think @shrpshtr325 brings up a good point about a 20% increase. I would think this has something to do with heat & ability to take the test. Having said that, it's an increase. And if you are properly setting your baseline, this is good. If you had dropped 20% we wouldn't be telling you not to worry about it. Much like how Strava segments are not exact, they're both close enough. Meaning: maybe your Strava time on the segment is not exactly right, but you know it's better to be in the top 10 than bottom 10. Likewise, it's better to see a 20% increase than 20% decrease.

The thing I noticed most was a decrease in HR from test A to test B. This sort of raises some red flags for me. 1-2 BPM is one thing. -9 is quite another. Was is especially hot the first time you took this test?
 
Norm said:
@BrianGT3 - sorry to have contributed to the total decimation of your thread. I am a firm believer that in order to be a better racer in *most* disciplines, it helps tremendously to have a solid FTP to use as a foundation for everything else. The exception is road racing, where you can work exclusively on your ability to draft and your CP1/CP2 and make your way to cat 3. Your success in all other disciplines will benefit from having a better FTP number. Even saying that, you will be able to better build your CP1/CP2 with a solid FTP foundation.

I think @shrpshtr325 brings up a good point about a 20% increase. I would think this has something to do with heat & ability to take the test. Having said that, it's an increase. And if you are properly setting your baseline, this is good. If you had dropped 20% we wouldn't be telling you not to worry about it. Much like how Strava segments are not exact, they're both close enough. Meaning: maybe your Strava time on the segment is not exactly right, but you know it's better to be in the top 10 than bottom 10. Likewise, it's better to see a 20% increase than 20% decrease.

The thing I noticed most was a decrease in HR from test A to test B. This sort of raises some red flags for me. 1-2 BPM is one thing. -9 is quite another. Was is especially hot the first time you took this test?
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I gind this article explains it well. FTP is great for training and increasing your functional power but the only thing I can think of to give an example...often in NUEs where u have miles of fire road SSers can hang onto geared bikes seemingly forever by “pulsing”. When I do this I briefly spin at roughly 150-175% of my normal cadence with increased power but the key is spin 3-5 rotations, rest 2-3. Doing this I can maintain a higher average speed with a much more controlable and lower heart rate. I’d say I am a stronger rider because of training with power but it won’t make you win races over a guy with a lower FTP in most cases.
 
@Norm @shrpshtr325 does bring up a good point. No need to feel like a negative nancy or downer writing it @shrpshtr325 , I'm not going to take it personally either. Main reason I started this thread is for accountability. I'm publicly sharing what I'm doing to train and race. What I post up here is going to fall into 3 catagories: What I'm doing correctly, What I could do better, or what I'm doing wrong. I'm fully expecting anyone reading this to point out any of those 3. I beleive constructive criticism is how you improve. Also personally knowing I will post up regarding my training here is another way for me to hold myself accountable to train everyday. My end goal is to win more cat 1 XC races and be a stronger rider. FTP test and power based training is one of the ways to get there.

On 8/28 I did my first ever FTP test. It wasn't really planned, I woke up that morning and said lets do a FTP test that day. According to my Garmin Avg Temp that day was 85 degrees, max was 91. I remember it also being incredibly humid that day. I got heavily nauseous towards the final 2 minutes of that FTP test. I felt drained the rest of the day. So not ideal conditions which explains the higher heartrate. I also didn't zero out my Power Meter, hell it had been months since I zero'd the thing out. When I was home and uploaded the run, I was pretty frustrated as I expected the number to be higher. Regardless I calc'd out my training zones and went from there. You have to start somewhere. But for sure temperature played a part, I did lots of riding week prior, over wknd, can't say I was fresh, that played a part. Also didn't zero out my power meter, that played a part. But like I said, got to start somewhere!

Since 8/28 I've moved onto power based training on my road bike. I also reconfigured the garmin, since then everytime I start a ride I get a prompt to zero my power meter which I do. Looking back I can say my FTP test 8/28 was somewhat accurate, maybe 70% accurate considering my physical state, temperature, power meter zeroing. I can back it up with when I began interval training using power numbers I found if my target was zone 4 for ## minutes, I had no problem holding zone 5. Also did the century ride I was in Zone4/5 on most climbs and able to hold that for almost 5 hours. Like I said, it was a start

My power test last Friday on 11/2? 95% accurate. Cooler temps in the 60s, I was feeling fresh, power meter zero'd out before ride. Also I did my first interval last night with updated training zones. I did 5 sets of 8 min zone 4 intervals. Top of Zone 4 is 321w with new FTP, I was in the 310-315w range each interval and it was freaking tough to hold there. Based on how I felt, yea I'd say my current FTP is more accurate.

I hope this clears some things up
 
@BrianGT3 Keep doin what you're doin. Great year this year, one that you can build on for sure. The first FTP is always rough. Add in 85-90 degrees and high humidity, and not really ideal conditions, but it does get you to a starting point, as you said. Sounds like the current test is more accurate based on your description of last nights intervals. :thumbsup:
 
i spent this year learning how to read a power meter as well, so im applying my thought process to how im approaching it to what you are sharing.

at the beginning of the year, (april/may timeframe i think) my first FTP test was done (poorly i know) by just going all out and pushing as hard as i could for the 20 minutes, came back with a number of 270 as a starting point for the year. Come august i did another test, on a really hot day, after a long lazyish weekend, came up with 280 (these are the calculated FTP numbers). Last week i did a season end test, decided last minute as i was getting dressed that it was what i was going to do that day, so i was not fresh and had definitely noticed i was getting lax with my rides as far as focus goes, managed a calculated number of 286.

My loop for this is the same loop i ride pretty much every day at lunch, and it does (unfortunately) have a circle in it that i use to turn around, i loose alot of watts going through that (8-12 watts off the 20 min avg is not uncommon) and then finish up the last 4-5 minuts of the 20 with rolling terrain which is definitely harder to hold numbers on. I figure it doesnt matter that its a less than ideal lap as long as i consistently use the same route for the test. (should i go back and try to do one more test just being fresh? i really dont know at this point in the year, would give me a nice starting point for next season . . . or i just run with what iv got)

I keep toying with the idea of another power meter for my new (to me) road bike instead of swapping the powertap between them, but then id question the consistency between two different units, wonder about losses through the drivetrain if i got a crank or pedal based setup ect. (it does seem that the closer you get to the pedals the higher the power number is, which makes sense based on drivetrain losses).

im rambling now so im going to shut this down and present it for criticism.
 
This is the equivalent to the car world of "a dyno sheet cant go down the track". you can have all the horsepower in the world, but if you can't put it to the ground or the driver sucks, it's worthless. That applies here for sure. This thread almost wants to make me do a 20m test instead of the 8m ones I've done, but I can't find a good stretch of road :p

I don't know what my FTP was in 2015, and I wasn't over 160 pounds, but I will say I was no where those numbers and was within shouting distance to a podium at Cat 1 H2H races. Again, too much weight into FTP and race results.
 
pearl said:
This is the equivalent to the car world of "a dyno sheet cant go down the track". you can have all the horsepower in the world, but if you can't put it to the ground or the driver sucks, it's worthless. That applies here for sure. This thread almost wants to make me do a 20m test instead of the 8m ones I've done, but I can't find a good stretch of road :p

I don't know what my FTP was in 2015, and I wasn't over 160 pounds, but I will say I was no where those numbers and was within shouting distance to a podium at Cat 1 H2H races. Again, too much weight into FTP and race results.
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But Brian can ride his face off so him up’ing his ftp is going to make him that much stronger in a race when he wants to throw down a dig. So his dyno sheet will thrown down a serious pass

This thread is good for people who are learning about the training / #s chase.

@BrianGT3 - Are you building a marketting portfolio for a training plan side biz?
 
My own experience. When my fitness, and this usually aligns with my FTP, is the highest at the end of the summer, my ability to recover from attacks or harder efforts in a race is better.
 
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