Chain wrap/suck problem...what chain to use?

Dave Taylor

Dave Taylor

Rex kwan Do
Some will say I'm fighting an uphill battle but thanks to @UtahJoe I have an FS ss that I love. It's down to 20.25lbs and climbs like a hardtail only smoother. I used it with an old 11 speed Shimano chain with a 32/17 combo all the way to 32/20 with no problems. I use an Absolute Black oval chainring(NW) and Chris King, Endless and Wolftooth cogs in the rear. It worked great for 40 miles on the gas at batsto, some hartshorne hammer rides, Ringwood xc race and wayway yesterday.
My problem is that I tried to install a 21t and it skipped at mooch in the lot so I ran my hardtail. Thinking it was like any other tensioner and skips with large cogs I wrote it off. Well I went to set it up for wayway with the 20 I had previously used and it still skipped...wtf? So, I remembered I installed a new kmc z400 chain on it. I proceeded to try two other. Ew chains and same problem. These were all Kmc z or the real big heavy chains that @Mitch uses. After an hour I realized the chain was staying on the chain ring and following it around then snapping off rather than releasing as the chainring spun. It did this on the rear as well. My rigid never had this problem but I used raceface chainrings(NW as well). Is this happening because of using a tensioner or do I need a special NW chain? I ended up putting the original chain from my fatbike on for wayway and it worked fine. If NW chain is the answer what's the strongest?
 
Check the max tooth count on your tensioner. My problem solvers is 18 max. I tried to run it with a 21 for the first time thinking what's the worst that could happen and it was skipping the whole ride whenever I was putting down some good power on climbs. It's because there isn't enough chain wrap on the lower part of the cog, which is what is needed when you're really cranking. Also, I'm not sure what you mean by NW chain as any chain works with Narrow/Wide if that's what you mean. I usually run a 10 speed chain singlespeed. Hope that helps a little bit.
 
1sh0t1b33r said:
Check the max tooth count on your tensioner. My problem solvers is 18 max. I tried to run it with a 21 for the first time thinking what's the worst that could happen and it was skipping the whole ride whenever I was putting down some good power on climbs. It's because there isn't enough chain wrap on the lower part of the cog, which is what is needed when you're really cranking. Also, I'm not sure what you mean by NW chain as any chain works with Narrow/Wide if that's what you mean. I usually run a 10 speed chain singlespeed. Hope that helps a little bit.
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That's why I thought that. This is a YESS ERD tensioner and is different. Very simple and idler is very close to chain stay. The issue is that it worked fine until I ran the other chains. Come to think of it, I have the stock warn out Shimano chain off my Domane with ultegra/105 combo.
 
I had a brand new chain skip on an old cog. Once I put a used chain on it, it was fine. This was using 10 speed chains, but it sounds like you could be experiencing the same thing.
 
pearl said:
I had a brand new chain skip on an old cog. Once I put a used chain on it, it was fine. This was using 10 speed chains, but it sounds like you could be experiencing the same thing.
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I thought about that but my Absolout black chainring has maybe 100 miles on it. No paint/anodizing warn off yet either.
 
Find the offending tooth th chain is snapping off on and inspect it. Sounds like you may have dinged the chainring, particularly if it's getting snagged on the same tooth.
 
The behavior you are describing is consistent with a new chain on a worn system. That it goes away with a used chain speaks volumes. Try this: wrap the chain all the way around each sprocket, and pinch the sides directly opposite where you are holding the chain on. If you can lift the chain off significantly, there is wear in either the chain, or the sprocket.

A second possibility for narrow-wide stuff (well, in general, but NW in particular): you have a chain that is slightly too narrow, and it is hanging up on the sprockets, right until it breaks loose from tension. This is easy to diagnose; if you have to "snap" the chain onto the sprockets, it is too narrow. This will go away by itself, as the sideplates of the chain wear/spread out on the pins.

When you do the same thing in a system without a bolt on tensioner, it can't skip, but it makes a hell of a lot of noise for 50-60 miles, until the chain wears in or loosens up.
 
Dave, I was wondering if you would eventually run into skipping problems, but not this soon. Here are a few thoughts:

-Your chain "snapping off" both front and rear rings almost sounds like you could have a tight link in your chain. Possibly from an install?

-I would def run stainless or Ti cogs in lieu of aluminum. In lieuuuminum. sorry. That savage 25 toother is probably alright in Al tho. I hope its Al. Drill some holes in that frisby.

-Drivetrain wears as one if your chain stretches. Pick up a gauge and check your chains. Once your chain stretches, gears wear accordingly, scrap everything. My last aluminum cog shit the bed before anything else showed signs of abuse, replaced with stainless and its butter. That felt lucky. Also, I've never worn out a chainring before the chain stretched. Def the most resilient of the lot. 2wice as many teeth as a cog.

-If you plan on swapping ratios keep a dedicated chain for each cog. For us "regular" hardtail SSer's the number of links will vary anyhow. Anyone that repeatedly adds and removes links is a dummy.

-I never imagined max cog sizes for tensioners since you mentioned it. For that i'm at a loss. You should be running large cogs on your FS. You need a gas engine style timing chain tensioner. Lets get prototyping!
 
Bravoporkchop said:
Dave, I was wondering if you would eventually run into skipping problems, but not this soon. Here are a few thoughts:

-Your chain "snapping off" both front and rear rings almost sounds like you could have a tight link in your chain. Possibly from an install?

-I would def run stainless or Ti cogs in lieu of aluminum. In lieuuuminum. sorry. That savage 25 toother is probably alright in Al tho. I hope its Al. Drill some holes in that frisby.

-Drivetrain wears as one if your chain stretches. Pick up a gauge and check your chains. Once your chain stretches, gears wear accordingly, scrap everything. My last aluminum cog shit the bed before anything else showed signs of abuse, replaced with stainless and its butter. That felt lucky. Also, I've never worn out a chainring before the chain stretched. Def the most resilient of the lot. 2wice as many teeth as a cog.

-If you plan on swapping ratios keep a dedicated chain for each cog. For us "regular" hardtail SSer's the number of links will vary anyhow. Anyone that repeatedly adds and removes links is a dummy.

-I never imagined max cog sizes for tensioners since you mentioned it. For that i'm at a loss. You should be running large cogs on your FS. You need a gas engine style timing chain tensioner. Lets get prototyping!
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Thanks for the input. I have had all these thoughts but why did a new chain work with 4 different warn rear cogs for 100 miles and now not? Just coincidence that these new chains are not geared bike chains? Never ever had a skipping issue on the rigid. I am fine with buying new cogs but I want to understand why. The 32/20 used front and rear rings were fine 3 weeks ago at Ringwood . Just changed to a 21 in mooch lot and threw on new chain for kicks and it happened. Chris king ss cogs are barely warn.
 
The first chain was a worn 11sp. What are the other chains? Does it matter for SS? 11sp chain is slightly narrower than 10sp, right?

That's all I got.
 
Dude. Don't overthink this. Get a new chainring, cog and new SRAM PC-1 chain and you will be good to go for each combo you want to run and use them as a system. All this mixing and matching new, old, kinda new, kinda old, different speed systems etc will drive you nuts.
 
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