Trail Damage from Selfish Riders

Off The Road Again

Well-Known Member
I've been reading all of these posts, some good ideas but the conversation is circular with no solution. I don't have a solution. We've been advocating education, JORBA awareness, signage, etc, and that's all good. The problem is the majority of the trail abusers likely are: not on this forum, not a JORBA member, don't have a LBS, don't use Strava, and don't do TM to understand the damage. I would hate to see wide-spread seasonal trail closures occur since I've had great rides during the timespan the trails would be closed - when it is well below freezing and ground is frozen rock solid. By the same token, I've run across several frozen ruts created when trails are not favorable, which is not fun. And spent my fair share of TM time to fix them. We, as a MTB community have been doing our best to police or educate, but it is falling on deaf ears. Unfortunately, it may come to broad brush closures like Nox and Nassau are doing.
KT does/did have the green-white season where they closed the trail to MTB from mid-Oct to March and allowed XC skiing and snow shoeing. However, since the popularity of fatbikes, I don't think this is the case any more. Riding in snow doesn't damage the trails, but that is not the issue here. Ultimately, if the word doesn't get out there that riding in the mud is detrimental to the trails, the parks may just ban MTB altogether. I try to tell everyone I run across who's getting into MTB, or just talking to on the trails, to just don't ride when it's wet or the trails might be permanently closed. I think some of that resonates, I hope. Signage (big) at the trailheads or in mud-prone areas may help and is probably the easiest way to get the message out. As I said earlier, the culprits likely are not affiliated with any MTB-related clubs, websites, or organizations to get the message. For those that do use Strava, I like JimN's approach (counts as a 'like' Jim), similar to what Steve does for TM at Stephens SP. If nothing else, it's subliminal messaging.
Like many of you, I'm having cabin fever, but I can wait until the trail conditions allow riding. My local trails (CR, 6M, and Sour) are off-limits in these conditions. HM and RV drain pretty good. Hopefully we can get the word out about mud-riding.
 

soundz

The Hat
Team MTBNJ Halter's
Seems like we have a solution. So who's gonna go to all the parks and ask for permission to close trails?
 

Patrick

Overthinking the draft from the basement already
Staff member
My 2.3s leave no trace riding in your massive 4.6 ruts.

You have got to hit offenders in their wallet to have a lasting effect. Get caught growin weed in your basement and they seize your house. Just like Air Marshals, have Trail Marshals on snowshoes with multiple 15 round magazines who cite you and relieve you of your muddy whip on the spot. Stalk Strava to get leads and the social aspect will get the word out immediately. Mandatory court appearance, fines, required community service / trail maintenance.

Oh, and get the trail conditions wedgie workin again.

i thought you were going to suggest atomic wedgies for trail abusers......
 
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its pretty simple. stalk strava. you can find the people that are wrecking trails in about 30 seconds.
https://www.strava.com/athletes/768527
https://www.strava.com/activities/1401160213#34787397723

https://www.strava.com/athletes/25812591
https://www.strava.com/activities/1401059274#34784598040

look at the pictures in the last link. it doesn't take long to figure out what happened to the trail when they rode. i'll save everyone the trouble.

View attachment 63695

i haven't logged on the site in a while because honestly, i find the same conversation about trail damage and the like pretty boring at this point. we gotta do something more than a sign, or an app. that ain't gonna change shit.

personally, i've tried reaching out via the interwebs to multiple people after seeing them post something like the above. i never get a response. why? they don't give a shit. i've walked out on the trail in my work dress shoes on my way home from work to get an up-to-the-minute trail conditions report; i have even done it on my way to work at six mile to post conditions here to help try to avert riders from rutting up the place. it doesn't help.

education works for people who care to be educated. in my opinion, trails need to be closed when wet, or seasonally. that's what's gonna stop it. that's up to the parks.

when we have riders riding in mud, we are gonna have access issues. when we have riders night riding, we are gonna have access issues. when we have riders poaching, we are gonna have access issues. we ride bikes in the woods - it's astonishing how much of an issue doing this is.

sorry about the rant. i just would like the conversation to change... somewhere. going in circles on this topic really isn't addressing anything.


It’s stupid night riding is brought into this... personally I love riding at night.. I don’t get home till 530-6 and during the fall/winter months it’s the only time I can ride... it’s not right to ride when trails are soft, but why the issue with night riding... go ride the fire roads at ringwood if you have to get out.. don’t close the trails..
 

Dingo

Well-Known Member
It’s stupid night riding is brought into this... personally I love riding at night.. I don’t get home till 530-6 and during the fall/winter months it’s the only time I can ride... it’s not right to ride when trails are soft, but why the issue with night riding... go ride the fire roads at ringwood if you have to get out.. don’t close the trails..
So it's those DAMN Lefty forks! Always knew they were up to no good.
 

Karate Monkey

Well-Known Member
It’s stupid night riding is brought into this... personally I love riding at night.. I don’t get home till 530-6 and during the fall/winter months it’s the only time I can ride... it’s not right to ride when trails are soft, but why the issue with night riding... go ride the fire roads at ringwood if you have to get out.. don’t close the trails..

It might be stupid, but except for a few parks in NJ, it's the law. Some of the parks turn a blind eye to enforcement, as long as it doesn't get blatant or rowdy, while others don't. At the end of the day, though? You get severely injured at night, and your light goes out, they're going to have a hell of a time locating you. That's why it isn't legal.
 

Patrick

Overthinking the draft from the basement already
Staff member
It’s stupid night riding is brought into this... personally I love riding at night.. I don’t get home till 530-6 and during the fall/winter months it’s the only time I can ride... it’s not right to ride when trails are soft, but why the issue with night riding... go ride the fire roads at ringwood if you have to get out.. don’t close the trails..

this appeared in the palisades (sterling?) thread earlier - just an update that the park people are aware of it, and we should self police. it is illegal, just like taking beer in the woods at night and drinking it. there are places that allow it as a regular guided ride because of the people that maintain the trails have arranged it.
it is an issue, it isn't that big an issue, unless the park people specifically call it out, and we don't talk about it. carry on, and if you get caught, nobody said it was ok.
 

SmooveP

Well-Known Member
its pretty simple. stalk strava. you can find the people that are wrecking trails in about 30 seconds.
https://www.strava.com/athletes/768527
https://www.strava.com/activities/1401160213#34787397723

https://www.strava.com/athletes/25812591
https://www.strava.com/activities/1401059274#34784598040

look at the pictures in the last link. it doesn't take long to figure out what happened to the trail when they rode. i'll save everyone the trouble.

View attachment 63695

i haven't logged on the site in a while because honestly, i find the same conversation about trail damage and the like pretty boring at this point. we gotta do something more than a sign, or an app. that ain't gonna change shit.

personally, i've tried reaching out via the interwebs to multiple people after seeing them post something like the above. i never get a response. why? they don't give a shit. i've walked out on the trail in my work dress shoes on my way home from work to get an up-to-the-minute trail conditions report; i have even done it on my way to work at six mile to post conditions here to help try to avert riders from rutting up the place. it doesn't help.

education works for people who care to be educated. in my opinion, trails need to be closed when wet, or seasonally. that's what's gonna stop it. that's up to the parks.

when we have riders riding in mud, we are gonna have access issues. when we have riders night riding, we are gonna have access issues. when we have riders poaching, we are gonna have access issues. we ride bikes in the woods - it's astonishing how much of an issue doing this is.

sorry about the rant. i just would like the conversation to change... somewhere. going in circles on this topic really isn't addressing anything.

I agree that the education part is pretty well covered. The worst offenders go beyond not giving a f*** and get a cheap thrill from thumbing their noses at the "trail nazis" who criticize them for riding in the mud. There's a particular guy who posts regularly on the NJ Mountain Biking FB group, complete with pictures and videos. I've tried to engage with him, nicely at first, with no luck. He responds, but not in any way that suggests he's open to discussing the pros and cons like a civilized human.
 

clarkenstein

JORBA Board Member/Chapter Leader
JORBA.ORG
It’s stupid night riding is brought into this... personally I love riding at night.. I don’t get home till 530-6 and during the fall/winter months it’s the only time I can ride... it’s not right to ride when trails are soft, but why the issue with night riding... go ride the fire roads at ringwood if you have to get out.. don’t close the trails..

i don't think it's "stupid". it's a fact that night riding is part of the problem. most of my riding is done under the lights. as @fidodie said, don't talk about it, don't get caught, but if you do get caught, and people do, don't act surprised and indignant if a closure or enforcement happens. i see people going on night rides where they might as well be lighting fireworks off in the parking lot and calling the parks department to let them know they will be out there.

guess my point is this - there's an attitude of 'i can do it and it doesn't matter'. it's great that you love night riding. i do too. doesn't make it legal, or right. saying you love something is not a good argument for us. saying it's the only time you can ride is not a good argument for us either. just like people who say "i can ride wet trails because i am going to fix it later at the next trail maintenance" or my personal favorite "well its a race so i get a pass". i guess you do since the parks allow it.

i ride in the mornings under the lights. i'm a hypocrite - i get it. but the fact is, just because we love to do it doesn't make it right. and talking about how we can say "don't do this, but look the other way on that" is not helping the conversation. and also saying the same stuff about wet trails over and over isn't fixing anything either.

we, as a group, are talking out of both sides of our mouths.
 

soulfly26

Member
Personally, for anyone that says you're all talking in circles and not really fixing the issue, I disagree. Sure, there will always be people that go out riding and ruin the trails but education is a big thing. When I was new to riding I didn't know any better and would ride on muddy days, but after being a member on these forums and seeing you guys talk about it at great length I realized the damage I could and probably was doing. So I stopped doing it. Consider that a win on your part...that's one less rider destroying the trails. It's possible other people have realized through these forums what they were doing as well and I'm sure you guys have discussed it on other outlets as well. Education is definitely the way to do it and keep discussing it even if it feels like you're getting nowhere. But remember some people are just assholes and will continue to do it just because.
 

pygmypony

Well-Known Member
Personally, for anyone that says you're all talking in circles and not really fixing the issue, I disagree. Sure, there will always be people that go out riding and ruin the trails but education is a big thing. When I was new to riding I didn't know any better and would ride on muddy days, but after being a member on these forums and seeing you guys talk about it at great length I realized the damage I could and probably was doing. So I stopped doing it. Consider that a win on your part...that's one less rider destroying the trails. It's possible other people have realized through these forums what they were doing as well and I'm sure you guys have discussed it on other outlets as well. Education is definitely the way to do it and keep discussing it even if it feels like you're getting nowhere. But remember some people are just assholes and will continue to do it just because.

agree 100% with @soulfly26 here...

this site has done a great job of 1) educating me and 2) empowering me to engage other riders who may not know any better...

progress is being made...baby steps...
 

Soundguy

#SenditGuy
Team MTBNJ Halter's
this appeared in the palisades (sterling?) thread earlier - just an update that the park people are aware of it, and we should self police. it is illegal, just like taking beer in the woods at night and drinking it. there are places that allow it as a regular guided ride because of the people that maintain the trails have arranged it.
it is an issue, it isn't that big an issue, unless the park people specifically call it out, and we don't talk about it. carry on, and if you get caught, nobody said it was ok.
The first rule of Fight Club is: Don't talk about Fight Club.
 

MuniMan

Well-Known Member
I’d like to thank everybody for not riding today even though it was nice in the morning. I went up to tweak some of the drains and saw no fresh bike tracks. Yea!

As expected the trail is very wet. No surprise there.
 

wonderturtle

Well-Known Member
Personally, for anyone that says you're all talking in circles and not really fixing the issue, I disagree. Sure, there will always be people that go out riding and ruin the trails but education is a big thing. When I was new to riding I didn't know any better and would ride on muddy days, but after being a member on these forums and seeing you guys talk about it at great length I realized the damage I could and probably was doing. So I stopped doing it. Consider that a win on your part...that's one less rider destroying the trails. It's possible other people have realized through these forums what they were doing as well and I'm sure you guys have discussed it on other outlets as well. Education is definitely the way to do it and keep discussing it even if it feels like you're getting nowhere. But remember some people are just assholes and will continue to do it just because.

Same here. When I first started I rode in the mud. Only after reading about it here did I become aware that it's not a good thing and am now very mindful of trail conditions. So, I agree, keep taking about it.. Here,Facebook, strava, etc

Ultimately think best solution is trailhead signage
 

Tim

aka sptimmy43
Personally, for anyone that says you're all talking in circles and not really fixing the issue, I disagree. Sure, there will always be people that go out riding and ruin the trails but education is a big thing. When I was new to riding I didn't know any better and would ride on muddy days, but after being a member on these forums and seeing you guys talk about it at great length I realized the damage I could and probably was doing. So I stopped doing it. Consider that a win on your part...that's one less rider destroying the trails. It's possible other people have realized through these forums what they were doing as well and I'm sure you guys have discussed it on other outlets as well. Education is definitely the way to do it and keep discussing it even if it feels like you're getting nowhere. But remember some people are just assholes and will continue to do it just because.

I'll agree with this too. I know I rode in... let's say "less than great" conditions a couple times when I first started. When you are a beginner it's actually hard to find current trail conditions if you don't know where to look. I found mtbnj.com after seeing a couple riders out on the trail rocking the blue and orange and it was immediately helpful. I would say this forum is doing it's part to educate.
 

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