Why is H2H hurting when MASS is doing well?

Come on...you upgrade to Cat 1, you better expect to up your training. This isn't something that just happens organically. You can just ride alot and be competitive in cat 2, but that's super rare in cat 1. Cat 1 is full of super competitive people who train with determination



I upgraded to cat 2, I got smoked for a year. Took my lumps, got motivated, came back the next year and was in the mix. The following year, I won races.

I upgraded to Cat 1, I got smoked for a couple years. Took my lumps, got motivated, came back every year working harder and harder.

If you want to just ride for fun and not take it too serious, stay in Cat 2. If you get forced to upgrade, but deep down you know you aren't ready, talk to the promoter and let them know. Hopefully they would be ok with staying in cat 2, but don't get mad when you aren't allowed to get series points or anything like that.
 
de00304 said:
I think lap times, rather than series placement, should drive the decision to upgrade or not.
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I agree. There is no rule saying you have to upgrade to cat 1 if you came in 2nd in the Cat 2 series and no one would expect you to.
There is more pressure to upgrade if you come in 1st place for the series in cat 2. If you are always winning races in Cat 2 it is discouraging for other cat 2 racers. Ultimately you should race the Cat you feel comfortable in and do what you think is fair. At the end of the day it's about having fun, deciding what cat to race should not be a heavy decision.
 
pooriggy said:
I agree. There is no rule saying you have to upgrade to cat 1 if you came in 2nd in the Cat 2 series and no one would expect you to.
There is more pressure to upgrade if you come in 1st place for the series in cat 2. If you are always winning races in Cat 2 it is discouraging for other cat 2 racers. Ultimately you should race the Cat you feel comfortable in and do what you think is fair. At the end of the day it's about having fun, deciding what cat to race should not be a heavy decision.
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There was rules around upgrading back then. I don’t recall the wording, but I think it was a formula around number of top 5 finishes in a season. Maybe that has changed?
 
My .02 cents.After racing both h2h and mass series i can say the mass series has better races.The whole vibe is more professional and fun.They provide scoring chips.
This may be sounding like a cheap ass but a h2h endurance race with the usac cost is $65 dollars to race around the same 5 mile loop.Last week i raced rattling creek with a fully stocked aid station,free swag and quick scoring for $55 bucks and to top it off they provided a all you can eat buffet.
Iron furnace endurance at wayway on may 5th is $40 bucks!
Also the mass series charges accordingly to time on the course.Most cat 3 races are only $22 dollars.
Races like Bear creek resort,iron hill,french creek,roth rock...killer trails.
How many times do you wait for results at h2h..it gets old.Mass series started using this live scoring where you can go on a web page and see results instant right on your phone as people finish and results usually posted not long after.
From what i see h2h dug its own hole...i know i might get some shit for this post but if you talk to some former h2h racers that switched to mass they can provide plenty of valid reasons.
fairhill this weekend has close to 300 registered,i would try to schedule h2h races not on the same day if possible.
 
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it got long - sorry.

marketing:

if everything points to a product that should sell, but it doesn't, it is a marketing problem.....

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i'm in halters today, and i see nj gran fondo, and other rides advertised..
was at HB on monday, they have the local stuff like rev ramble.

nothing for h2h
nothing for jorba
nothing for mtbnj (i'm not sure i expect it at hb, but probably halters)
no mtb races at all that i noticed.

even the name 'mid atl super series' sounds like an upgrade from 'hudson 2 highlands' - like 'i won h2h, so time for mass'

i think we do a crappy job of marketing. and i'll take it on myself, since i was asked a couple years ago to start thinking about
rebranding jorba. it doesn't happen in a vacuum. it all has to go together. giving the parks an identity and brand. relating trail work
to jorba. getting non-riders to identify mtbers with trail work. I'm currently thinking about signage - esp on TM days.
If 6MR is in the top 10 parks in the nation, as voted by its users, wouldn't it make sense to set up shop there, and push, push, push.

one of the best thing i've heard so far in here is 'order of races' - yes, they should get progressively tougher.
the tech riders should know they can catch the climbers as the series progresses.

the ability to award a prize to a climber vs a tech rider exists in strava or equiv. what are we waiting for? it can't be a downhill, per strava policy.

make it personal - i may pitch this to the timing companies - what if a group wanted to have their own race-in-race?
What if they wanted handicaps? What would it be worth on top of race entry? it is only software. They wouldn't even need to
ride in the same wave. race promoter gets half ?? (they provide the content)

and one of the problems is the order of events day of race - it is almost unavoidable - the only idea i have is to send cat 3 right after pro/cat 1 - if they
are doing 1 lap, you'd hope they wouldn't get caught by pros doing 3 - this would save an hour. (means starting an hour later)
- i'm sure smarter people than me have gone over the iterations 100s of times. This puts more people on-site too, adding to vibe.

@AL. just mentioned the scoring - and i was happy that the rumble got their scores up on monday, and corrected some issues on tuesday.
It really is time for live scoring. I'm not sure it has to be chipped scored - that makes it easier, and less people, but more money. Doesn't mean it isn't
doable......again, more software.

The Hippo Cross event had the right vibe to it. food, band, kids course, lots of parking, beer, team row, vendor area, etc.
the racers go by 5+ times per race, so it is more conducive to spectators. I understand that using public land (or adjacent private land with restrictions
in the case of mooch) has its challenges -

--

time to sleep - please keep the commentary coming, honest, constructive. it can be critical, but remember there are people behind the decisions -
make it about what you experienced.
 
Ringwood had timing chips on the number plates.

BSA only has ONE date available for the Allamuchy race, known as Mooch Madness (per podcast #25).

We had MTBNJ cards at most of the shops last year for our group ride series, should do again, can H2H do similar next year?

Hb and Marty's I know have NICA cards at or near the registers or service area.

JORBA is fine. H2H is meh. But I don't t have a better idea. Oh, hey look. A can of worms. Why is MTB not part of NJBA?

:popcorn:
 
Lurker
Yeah. What they said for sure. You’re presentation to the public via bikereg all feels pretty amateur hour, like the only people you’re speaking to are mtbnj forum diehards ie. a super specific, insular clique
 
Six miles is top 10 in the nation?

So you are suggesting Jorba targets non riders? Aren’t they lot of clubs for other groups? In any case volunteers spend time every weekend to spread the Jorba word? Not sure how fruitful that would be.

Why should the races get harder as the season goes? Shouldn’t it be varied so someone doesn’t run away with the points because they like “easy” courses.
 
JimN said:
Uh, we are amateurs. I can't imagine many people get to our bikereg page and decide not to do our race because we like to have fun. I would think most people don't get to our bikereg page.
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Yeah, this.

Here’s one way to look at it. Tomorrow I’m going to take all the money I get paid for this and put it in one hand and I’ll shit in the other. Then I’ll tell you which fills up faster.

Here’s a hint. Don’t shake my hand tomorrow.
 
Ringwood was my first time back to an H2H race in a while and I thought it was well done. My son got changed after his race and results were already posted when we wandered back down to the lake. Nothing like the days of old. That's at least one positive of going USAC.

Some sort of food or entertainment would be cool at one of these things. A lot of times the vibe is lame because everyone leaves to go eat and no one is around to cheer other racers or just hang around with folks that are done. CX races with food always have a much better vibe than those without. Music or something, even better. Compare HippoCX which had everything to Marty's which had nothing at all. I ran around all day at Hippo yelling at racers, ate food there, watched Lance and Larry shred, awesome time. Only race I enjoyed myself despite the competition itself being exactly the same all season. Would be cool if XC races could capture some of that somehow.
 
stb222 said:
Why should the races get harder as the season goes? Shouldn’t it be varied so someone doesn’t run away with the points because they like “easy” courses.
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People can still run away with points by doing just the easy stuff no matter what the order of the races is. I just meant that (for me at least), getting back into racing after winter is rough, and doing Ringwood and mooch right off the winter shlub is difficult. Having something like Lewis Morris earlier would just let me mentally and physically get back into it all. But I do also realize that parks only have certain days open and you often take what you can get.
 
AL. said:
Also the mass series charges accordingly to time on the course.Most cat 3 races are only $22 dollars.
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MASS race fees are approximately $40 for all XC categories (Cat 1, 2 & 3), except Juniors which are approx $20.
 
MadisonDan said:
Ringwood had timing chips on the number plates.

BSA only has ONE date available for the Allamuchy race, known as Mooch Madness (per podcast #25).

We had MTBNJ cards at most of the shops last year for our group ride series, should do again, can H2H do similar next year?

Hb and Marty's I know have NICA cards at or near the registers or service area.

JORBA is fine. H2H is meh. But I don't t have a better idea. Oh, hey look. A can of worms. Why is MTB not part of NJBA?

:popcorn:
Click to expand...

Why stay married to the BSA ? Aside from mutual benefit, it is limiting. I say this without enough knowledge to suggest an alternate venue.
or at least staging area. like i said, smarter/in-the-know people have been working this for years, and know the constraints.

I think there was a NICA poster at Hb too? There is a massive amount of horsepower behind the NICA movement (ie you). Parents and very caring
individuals are putting in serious amounts of time. I've had 2 non-riding parents tell me how they, and their kid loves everything about it. One, i had no
idea who it was! Parents->$$ entry fees, fund raisers, donations.......boosters!!

stb222 said:
Six miles is top 10 in the nation?

So you are suggesting Jorba targets non riders? Aren’t they lot of clubs for other groups? In any case volunteers spend time every weekend to spread the Jorba word? Not sure how fruitful that would be.

Why should the races get harder as the season goes? Shouldn’t it be varied so someone doesn’t run away with the points because they like “easy” courses.
Click to expand...

I can't find the article, but it listed Santos as #1 6MR came in at #6 - i don't know the criteria, but it had a nice blurb on conditions, multi-use, etc...

Non-riders show up at the TM sessions at the sourlands. if someone is going to make a donation, and they don't know about JORBA, it will probably
go the the NJTC. So yes, compete for the $$. I'd suggest a 1 question survey at a trailhead on a busy day. "what organization(s) do(es) the trail maintenance here?"

A few hours at the 6MR trail head at the canal lot on 'the longest day' ride would be a good choice - couple of tents up already, one more looks like a festival!
we can have balloons or an air dancer ;) - On a serious note, not every park, not every weekend, pick wisely. Without marketing, or "Educational Campaign" donors,
even ones with bikes, must stumble upon organizations and events.

my OCD kicking in, so getting progressively harder gives order to chaos. just tossing that out there. That and Joy's comments.
I'm also a fan of alternate lines, and alternate courses for beginners - but that is just me. You and @gingertooth can smack me next time you see me for this!

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Is there a team prize/cup/award ???
Motivation for a group to show up?
 
AL. said:
My .02 cents.After racing both h2h and mass series i can say the mass series has better races.The whole vibe is more professional and fun.They provide scoring chips.
This may be sounding like a cheap ass but a h2h endurance race with the usac cost is $65 dollars to race around the same 5 mile loop.Last week i raced rattling creek with a fully stocked aid station,free swag and quick scoring for $55 bucks and to top it off they provided a all you can eat buffet.
Iron furnace endurance at wayway on may 5th is $40 bucks!
Also the mass series charges accordingly to time on the course.Most cat 3 races are only $22 dollars.
Races like Bear creek resort,iron hill,french creek,roth rock...killer trails.
How many times do you wait for results at h2h..it gets old.Mass series started using this live scoring where you can go on a web page and see results instant right on your phone as people finish and results usually posted not long after.
From what i see h2h dug its own hole...i know i might get some shit for this post but if you talk to some former h2h racers that switched to mass they can provide plenty of valid reasons.
fairhill this weekend has close to 300 registered,i would try to schedule h2h races not on the same day if possible.
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@AL.

I think you are seeing what you want to see. I have done a bunch of the MASS races and I don't think you can honestly say that those trails are any better than Jungle, Mooch, and Wawayanda. Sure we lost Waway this year but until this year, it was one of the series races.

I remember Granogue was an epic event years ago. You paid more for endurance, raced for 4 hours in a circle of 6-7 miles, on land that you were legally only allowed to ride once a year. Exactly like Allamuchy. But the Mooch trails are better, IMO.

Rattling Creek is $55, which ignores the $50 in gas you put in your car to get there.

I am limited by how much I can spend on giving things away, due to my obligation to pay the open class. I wish it were not so but it is. Add to that the loss on the short track this year, and this puts us in a shitty financial position. Technically we are supposed to be buying the BSA bikes, as this is our arrangement. I have eaten my fair share of post-event foods, including our own. For me, the promoter can donate the bikes because the food is usually lackluster at best. IMO give me a food truck any day. Having said that, good luck getting a food truck at your event. It's hard.

We have always been at the front edge of scoring. We discussed electronic timing in the past, but after watching a former promoter total mangle the results, to the point that roughly half the people coming across the line were not being scored right, we backed off that. It appears this has gotten better, so we may discuss moving forward with it again. We have generally been the only org in the entire east coast to email you the results while you are in your car driving home. This has been our MO for 6 years now. But again, you selectively remember what you want. I really do like you Al. But I'm going to call you out on these.

As mentioned before - our date is set for us. We probably have alternatives to this but I have not really thought about exploring them too much. If you come Sunday, we can discuss it. Or you can opt to go to Maryland and ride that dirt crit for a few hours and spend 4 hours in traffic driving home. I mean, yeah those courses you talk about are killer trails, but they don't get the numbers that Fair Hill does. Because FH is really easy, and people like easy.

Hugs & Kisses,
Norm
 
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